small cat liveaboard&slow circumnavigation: PDQ 32 or FP 35 Tobago or Lagoon 35CCC

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by jmh2002

For extra capacity of water or fuel I would again suggest soft bladders instead of jerry cans.

The soft bladders can be put into a difficultly shaped storage space onboard where a jerry can won't fit. They come in multiple different shapes even including triangles. They can also just be put on deck or in the cockpit for extra long range when necessary.

After they can be stored flat and mostly disappear. Jerry cans don't, and/or still take up a lot of space when unused. There are collapsible jerry cans available though, which would be better if they are only for occasional/emergency use.

So I would suggest bladders + 1 collapsible jerry can for diesel + 1 collapsible jerry can for water just in case you really need to carry them from ashore in a location where you can't get to a dock.

Otherwise that TRT looks pretty cool for a performance interested sailor and it seems like a lot of boat for the money.

As you said, add a big hard bimini for weather protection, rain collection, and mounting solar panels and you have a pretty nice overall package.

thank you, will take that into consideration. storing when not used is really a good point for soft bladders. Will check the spaces for 100-200l soft bladders avaliable when looking at it in person.
main point is I don't need tanks refitted, for normal crusing mode its ok as is and I can get away with an additional flexible solution for the long passages for diesel. water is ok.

Figuring out the big stuff that would be needed to refit for the top boat of my short list.
So I know when I look at it and can check if what needs a refit right away can be done there/maybe make a deal with owner or figuring the best location I need to bring it to do the refits and factor that costs in too.

one 20l collapsable or cherry can to get diesel from ashore is definitly to less, 3 to 5 is what most boats have that I know. Its not uncommon on small islands to have no habour or the habour there dosen't have a petrol station and you have to go a bit inland to get fuel. But thats small details and easy to buy everywhere. Not to worry now.

[jmh2002]

Your earlier post here also touches on a lot of these points:
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ml#post2982382

I totally understand your ideas as I have very similar plans and modifications in mind for my next boat too.

Just a few points to note from looking at this boat again. These are not deal breakers, just things to look at both when viewing the boat and considering the refit for live aboard cruising.

- Access to the water at the stern needs improving. Both for in and out of the dinghy and in and out the water for swimming.

- The main cabin hatches don't look very water tight if you are caught in serious bad weather offshore and a big wave comes over or into the boat.

- The big hatches on the bow should be turned around to catch the wind at anchor for better ventilation. A long and low awning/wind scoop should be fitted to block the rain. Same for the very small hatches on top of the double berths.

- In general ventilation seems limited for the tropics so you will really need that air coming in the forward hatches, flowing through the boat, and out the small stern hatches.

- Maybe instead of the Honda genset larger alternators can be fitted to the diesels? It looks like there is some space on the alternator side. This would save weight and give you a backup since there are already 2 diesels.

- 300L water capacity is probably as you said 'ok' for 2 people + water maker + rain catcher. Most couples seem to use between 50 and 100L per day for comfortable living. Less is possible with extreme measures, more is possible if washing the boat with fresh water, using a washing machine, etc.

- Converting one water tank to diesel makes sense in general but leaves you with only 150L of freshwater which seems a little bit low. Maybe the flexible bladder idea will solve this problem?

- Maybe also the 120L of diesel will be enough for normal cruising if the boat will mainly run off solar (very possible, see this thread: http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ey-201795.html) and wind. Then you may only need to fill a bladder with diesel for ocean crossings.

- 30hp diesels seem quite big for this light weight boat, so maybe motoring can be done at quite low rpm? But even so, maybe there is only 20-30 hours of range with both engines and 120L? (someone else please check my rough calculations and assumptions here please).

- Hmm, yeah, in general it's not enough. Motoring on one engine is normally ok, so that's helpful too, but definitely some more diesel tank capacity would be nice. So for the TRT, more diesel instead of the Honda + petrol, and the easiest solution is to convert 150L of freshwater to diesel, and then add water and diesel bladders for ocean crossings.

- This would give 270L of diesel. So maybe 45 to 70 hours of range (+ bladders)? Better.

- @Tupaia wrote a good post on this subject: http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ml#post2985302

- A washing machine is always a heavily debated subject, but personally I would want this, and would go without other things instead. It adds such a huge a amount of comfort and convenience. And getting washing done ashore, at least in places like the Caribbean, is expensive. The Daewoo Mini https://daewooelectronics.com.au/pro...d-washer-mini/ and Samsung Sidekick https://www.lg.com/us/washers/lg-WD200CV have been mentioned a lot (here is one thread but there are more http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...at-221216.html)

Anyway that's some thoughts for now. Hope it's helpful.

[jmh2002]

Originally Posted by Tupaia

I would carry 4 x 20ltr cans in addition to the existing 120ltrs of fixed tankage. Being able to continue sailing in very light winds is the key and the TRT will let you do this but not with an excessive load of fuel or water on board. Compare the engine hours to the distance travelled log, this will give you an idea of how well the boat sails.

We sail with 220ltr (4 x 55ltr tanks) of diesel to supply 2x27hp engines. We carry 1 spare 20ltr can of diesel just in case we have to jury rig a supply to one of the engines due to contamination or blockage.

Having a larger water tank capacity is useful for when you are at anchor, can't use the water maker for some reason, and have to relay on going along side to fill up. But you only need 150-200ltrs when sailing if you have a water maker.

These have been our requirements for ocean crossings and have never even come close to running out of fuel or water.

So we can compare, what boat is this on please?

How many crew, and what is your daily water consumption?

What is your fuel consumption per hour (1 or 2 engines?), and the speed and range at that hourly consumption?

THANKS

[sailjumanji]

You are doing a good job of advertising and promoting thst TRT. Do you have an offer on it?

[jmh2002]

Is this comment directed at me?

If yes, then NO I'm not connected to the TRT in any way. I simply made my own assessment of this boat by looking at the for sale links and comparing it to the needs that @CaptainRivet suggested, along with my own experience.

@CaptainRivet said he is quite interested in this boat and that he flying to see it soon.

[CaptainRivet]

@jmh: very usesfull points, thanks for sharing them.


the TRT as is goes windspeed till 15kn due to owner, so 5kn wind 5 kn speed. With the additional gear and windage producing Hardtop bimini that will go down, hope 5kn wind to 4kn speed.

Hope that saves a lot diesel as I can sail were a condo needs to motor to move. So I will count on this a plan my setup accordingly, if it doesn't work I need to add diesel tank.


- Access to the water at the stern needs improving. Both for in and out of the dinghy and in and out the water for swimming.
=> definitly a point to look at, on the other side there are several in the keys and bahama as is, so should work as is.
- The main cabin hatches don't look very water tight if you are caught in serious bad weather offshore and a big wave comes over or into the boat.
=> first they are super water tight, no problem here. one of my frist worries too but confirmed by 3 TRT owners. 2nd they will be protected by hardtop bimini and sprayhood going over the full width of the boat. So can leave them open all times.
- The big hatches on the bow should be turned around to catch the wind at anchor for better ventilation. A long and low awning/wind scoop should be fitted to block the rain. Same for the very small hatches on top of the double berths.
=> yes that's the plan and even add 2 till 4 hatches, should be easy to do as no internal panel. Can see right away whats underneath when viewing. think I mention that already too.
- In general ventilation seems limited for the tropics so you will really need that air coming in the forward hatches, flowing through the boat, and out the small stern hatches.
=> absolutley agree and wrote that already
- Maybe instead of the Honda genset larger alternators can be fitted to the diesels? It looks like there is some space on the alternator side. This would save weight and give you a backup since there are already 2 diesels.
=> engines have already bigger 2x120A alternators. Honda gen suitcase is small, low weight and easy. Just a 3rd backup when I go mainly electric but yes that is 2nd priority.
- 300L water capacity is probably as you said 'ok' for 2 people + water maker + rain catcher. Most couples seem to use between 50 and 100L per day for comfortable living. Less is possible with extreme measures, more is possible if washing the boat with fresh water, using a washing machine, etc.
=> agreed
- Converting one water tank to diesel makes sense in general but leaves you with only 150L of freshwater which seems a little bit low. Maybe the flexible bladder idea will solve this problem?
=> as said due to owner there is a space in the floor for approx 100-200l diesel bladder. will try without and can always add if space is there.
- Maybe also the 120L of diesel will be enough for normal cruising if the boat will mainly run off solar (very possible, see this thread: http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ey-201795.html) and wind. Then you may only need to fill a bladder with diesel for ocean crossings.
=> great thread with a lot of info, thanks! yes thats mainly my planed way, just half his size on all besides inverter.
- 30hp diesels seem quite big for this light weight boat, so maybe motoring can be done at quite low rpm? But even so, maybe there is only 20-30 hours of range with both engines and 120L? (someone else please check my rough calculations and assumptions here please).
=> see above boat goes windspeed till 15kn. 2nd 2x30hp is on purpose oversized and why is explained before. So yes low rpm for motor cruising on one and even heavy rough weather is only midrange RPM on one due to owner.
- Hmm, yeah, in general it's not enough. Motoring on one engine is normally ok, so that's helpful too, but definitely some more diesel tank capacity would be nice. So for the TRT, more diesel instead of the Honda + petrol, and the easiest solution is to convert 150L of freshwater to diesel, and then add water and diesel bladders for ocean crossings.
=>the 2x150l water are also for balancing the boat with the heavier inboards. They are below the beds in the bow cabins. Will leave as is and find a solution for normal mode if needed, long passages yes bladder+jerry cans is what I would go for.
- This would give 270L of diesel. So maybe 45 to 70 hours of range (+ bladders)? Better. => will try without and can always add bladder and some collapsable jerry cans if needed.

- @Tupaia wrote a good post on this subject: http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ml#post2985302

- A washing machine is always a heavily debated subject, but personally I would want this, and would go without other things instead. It adds such a huge a amount of comfort and convenience. And getting washing done ashore, at least in places like the Caribbean, is expensive. The Daewoo Mini https://daewooelectronics.com.au/pro...d-washer-mini/ and Samsung Sidekick https://www.lg.com/us/washers/lg-WD200CV have been mentioned a lot (here is one thread but there are more http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...at-221216.html)
=> absolultly agree on this, also inline with my experience and boat has enough payload to sacrfice that additional weight. Will even go for a small(!) dish washer too. Needs less water as hand wash (definitly a proper excuse as I hate washing dishes). Weight again is below 10kg for it. Friend installed one 2 years ago on his trimaran and confirmed water saving+ added comfort, one of the best things he retrofited he said.

[jmh2002]

Another point that I would add is that from reading the various solar threads I think (please double check) that better efficiency is achieved by the solid solar panels instead of the flexible ones.

I had in mind that perhaps the bimini top could made just from the solar panels with maybe just a waterproof material skin underneath.

Hopefully getting the benefits of both the more effecient panels but saving weight and extra cost to construct the bimini top?

Not 100% sure about walking on the panels though, but a walkway could be left on the centre line under the boom for mainsail access, and this part is shaded at anchor anyway so doesn't need solar panels there.

[CaptainRivet]

@smj:

that daewoo wall mount washing maschine is great and would directly fit in the head mounted high up next to the toilet on the wall so all installation pipes for normal and grey water is there already next to it. plus no surge issue as grey water tank is below the head.

regarding solar:

yes that was one of my thoughts too. did research on it and even found a thread here with a monohull that done that. I would need 2 till 3 times the span of that solar hardtop for the TRT. But you cannot find any solar modul that is made to be mounted to each other to achieve a bigger surface with included water drain. that would mean you need a proper&heavy stainless steel frame underneath with supports as mounting platform plus in fact a soft top bimini underneath plus you can not walk on it.
That creates the problem of stacking height underneath the boom as this construction is approx 10cm high. Height underneath boom is 230cm and standing height below the roof should be at 215cm height in the middle and lowest 205cm at the sides+ 5cm Height of hardtop itself (due to rainwater catch) is 220cm which just leaves 10cm between boom and roof for the ropes etc. enough but less creates problems.

so a hardtop with flexible solar on is still the best option in my eyes and lighter then the above construction.

The flexible panels can be less effective which is mostly the question of heat distribution when put directly on the surface, could mount them with a space inbetween...or I just stick 2 more on to reach my capacity I need as there is definitly enough space. plus i would extend/replace the solar over the davids by 2 or 3 solid panels, there solid ones make sense.

[sailjumanji]

Originally Posted by jmh2002

Is this comment directed at me?

If yes, then NO I'm not connected to the TRT in any way. I simply made my own assessment of this boat by looking at the for sale links and comparing it to the needs that @CaptainRivet suggested, along with my own experience.

@CaptainRivet said he is quite interested in this boat and that he flying to see it soon.

No, and i didnt mean anything malicious with the comment. Just wanted to make the point that i have seen more than one boat purchased out from under another considering and discussing it publicly.

Ive sailed a few times on a TRT 1200 as well. Very fast boat. Need to pay a lot of attention to reefing, as it can fly a hull. One in texas went over in a gust when they werent fast enough in releasing mainsheet. From a PHRF viewpoint, rates the same as a Corsair F31 trimaran.

[jmh2002]

Originally Posted by sailjumanji

No, and i didnt mean anything malicious with the comment.

[jmh2002]

Originally Posted by sailjumanji

Ive sailed a few times on a TRT 1200 as well. Very fast boat. Need to pay a lot of attention to reefing, as it can fly a hull. One in texas went over in a gust when they werent fast enough in releasing mainsheet. From a PHRF viewpoint, rates the same as a Corsair F31 trimaran.

Yes I didn't really get into that as @CaptainRivet seemed confident about the high performance aspect.

On this subject I would add though that the 3 reefs mentioned earlier (and no storm sails) probably isn't enough for ocean passages on such a high performance and light boat.

4 reefs (with the 4th being very deep) and a dedicated heavy storm jib might be more appropriate, but there is no inner forestay of course. Not sure from a structural point of view if a padeye can be installed somewhere forward to fly a free hoisted synthetic wire luffed storm jib from?

[CaptainRivet]

I am confident with a performance cat.

Flying a hull:was that a TRT GT open bridgedeck, minimum on with outbourds and carbon race sails?
How is she to sail and handle in normal mode? Great you had experience with TRT and can give me first hand info.

The CR I am lucking at is the 600kg heavier cruiser version with performance cruiser sails, another 300kg additional for 2 inboards, 200kg for all the gear like 120l fridge/heater...on now and another 200kg extra for the 2x150l water tank instead of 2x50l in the GT.
Tossing another 500-700kg of gear and fluids which is still in the payload on for liveaboard and long passages...will that still fly the hull? Maybe yes with 30kn wind with gust to 40 and no reef. Well with the right crew on board I will try this and be alarmed it could fly the hull and prepared to react. but alone or 2 very conservative put in 1st reef at 20, far away from danger and I am still much faster then any condo.

But isn't that actually a luxery that it is very fast, quite light and has a quite high payload.
Its easy to depower it and make it safer...toss more weight on and go from performance sails to cheap standard sails. Lowers running cost too. Normally its the other way around.

So I probably need to or can get eg cheap framed fix solar panels instead the more expensive flexible solar panels as I don't need to safe weight to make her safer.Not a bad situation to be in...

[Tupaia]

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

- 30hp diesels seem quite big for this light weight boat, so maybe motoring can be done at quite low rpm? But even so, maybe there is only 20-30 hours of range with both engines and 120L? (someone else please check my rough calculations and assumptions here please).

I run 2 x 27 hp diesels on a bigger cat and with mineral diesel consumption on one engine only, at 5 knots, averages 1.86 l/h. Bio diesel increase this to about 2.1 l/h. Only ever use both engines for anchoring or berthing.

120ltrs assuming 5 knots and 2 l/h = 300Nm

I would be very wary of overloading a cat, it does not become safer. A light cat is proportional impacted more than a heavier one and stresses will quickly increase beyond the design limits.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by Tupaia

I run 2 x 27 hp diesels on a bigger cat and with mineral diesel consumption on one engine only, at 5 knots, averages 1.86 l/h. Bio diesel increase this to about 2.1 l/h. Only ever use both engines for anchoring or berthing.

120ltrs assuming 5 knots and 2 l/h = 300Nm

I would be very wary of overloading a cat, it does not become safer. A light cat is proportional impacted more than a heavier one and stresses will quickly increase beyond the design limits.

due to owner below 1.5l/h with 5kn = >400NM crusing mode ok. For long passage with 160 l extra in bladder and jerry can is >900NM, fore sure another 100l fits on too if needed.

As long as I stay in the speced payload nothing gets unsafe. A 7000lb speced GT with race sails flies the bow. With how many crew, when exactly and what wind speeds are needed for that?
what does a 10000 or 14000lb CR do? For sure much later fly the bow=safer and yes it will get a bit slower too.

This TRT as is 8500lb with inboards, fully loaded with 8 crew and all tanks to max around 11000. The speced max load capacity is 14400lb. So all I mentioned is still within spec so nothing gets unsafe or overstressed as designed for it. I will take care about weight with all refits if I get the TRT.

Light is good, sails with less wind and stresses everything less. Totally agree.



But depowering to move the "Fly the bow" much later/less critical to reef/sail if needed by worse cruising sails and adding weight as long as within(!) spec is easily done&safe if needed. Or am I wrong here?
If I am wrong why?

[smj]

Lightship for the TRT 1200 is 7,000 lbs., loaded displacement is 11,000 lbs. Given the TRT 1200 has a LWL to BWL ratio of about 14:1 the hull will be easily depressed with any added weight. To me the 4,000 lbs of load is being generous.