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Old 26-12-2014, 09:17   #121
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Re: Capsized Atlantic 57 Salvaged

I am just trying to understand the limitations of all types of boats we sail. I mean looking at the history, there are a few Atlantic cats that have flipped, but I think his Hammerhead 54 would be very stable, as his Juniper has been.
Monos are a different beast, and I think they may be safer in the high latitudes, but that is just my opinion. I do appreciate the responses from those that actually are cruising with these beasts.
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Old 26-12-2014, 09:58   #122
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Re: Capsized Atlantic 57 Salvaged

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I think you are right in assuming that to sail a cat very fast it will be needed very experienced sailors and a crew that allows a constant vigilance over the wind conditions and that is much more racing then cruising. That's why on the ARC average cats of about the same size are just slightly faster than mass market monohulls and considering performance cats, about as fast as performance monohulls of the same size while cruising loaded on the ARC.
That is an astute observation. While I'm certain I can out pace cruising monos of a significantly larger size in a breeze and when I'm paying attention, when I'm not willing to sit at the helm with my eyes wide open I have to slow down to an equivalent speed by taking an unnecessary reef.
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Old 26-12-2014, 10:02   #123
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Re: Capsized Atlantic 57 Salvaged

I was lucky enough to get out on a sea trial of an Atlantic 57 cat on the Chesapeake this fall in 10-15 kt breeze. Nice boat! Very fast. That said, after 2 hours I felt a bit queasy (and I never get seasick) from the slightly jerkier motion of a cat, coupled with riding higher above water. Surely could get used to it, but lack of heeling and rolling are not the only thing to consider in comparing. And looking at the huge sailplan I really thought about how careful you'd have to be offshore not to get caught overcanvassed....

My big concern would be reading the cues that you're overpowered which seemed much more subtle on the cat than on a mono which will heel and depower to let you know there's an issue


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Old 26-12-2014, 10:12   #124
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Re: Capsized Atlantic 57 Salvaged

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... the slightly jerkier motion of a cat, coupled with riding higher above water.... And looking at the huge sailplan I really thought about how careful you'd have to be offshore not to get caught overcanvassed....

My big concern would be reading the cues that you're overpowered which seemed much more subtle on the cat than on a mono which will heel and depower to let you know there's an is an issue.
Also good observations.

* High helm stations suck when it gets rough.
* The feel is much more subtle. Eye's need to be on the sails much of the time to follow minor shifts and changes; there is little feel.
* Reefing comes sooner, particularly on a reach. Just when she is going like a bomb, into double digits, you need to consider what the effect of a sudden change in wind strength or condition would be. Perhaps easing the sheets won't help. Thus, with the exception of large headsails, you generally should not carry sail off the wind that you are not comfortable with up-wind.
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Old 26-12-2014, 12:34   #125
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Re: Capsized Atlantic 57 Salvaged

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Polux, you should put your boat and details under your avatar so we know what you have.
My boat is on my avatar, it is a 7 year's old fast performance cruiser and what is the relevance regarding what I post? I like all types of boats and I am not sure I would like to be connected with a particular type of boat. Yes I have that one now but contrary to many I could have something else if I had more money not necessarily the same type of boat, providing it was fast and had a nice cruiser interior (that part more for my wife then me) and it pleased to my eyes.
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Old 26-12-2014, 12:59   #126
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Re: Capsized Atlantic 57 Salvaged

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I don't doubt it. That said, your cat is considerably higher tech than a beneteau, right?


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Old 26-12-2014, 13:02   #127
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Re: Capsized Atlantic 57 Salvaged

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You don't need to have any considerable mileage on cats or trimarams to know basic stuff about their comparable performance or stability characteristics and you can have circumnavigated on a cat and have experience on trimarans without understanding their difference in what regards final stability for the simple reason that except if you are a top racing multihull offshore sailor you don't sail big cats or big trimarans to almost capsizing conditions or actually capsized them.

But if you have some sailing experience and know enough about boat design those different characteristics are obvious.

So in other words, you have zero experience on these boats? And zero interest in ever owning one, right?


And having experience on different boats does help you to have an informed opinion. For instance, someone was talking about the forces involved in accidental gybes. If you'd only sailed a monohull you'd be unlikely to know how much difference the long traveller on a cat makes to this scenario. On a mono it's quite frightening, and potentially dangerous. On a cat like ours, it's pretty much a non-event.
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Old 26-12-2014, 13:19   #128
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Re: Capsized Atlantic 57 Salvaged

Polux answered my slightly off topic question. Can I ask you guys to get along? This has been an honest thread pretty much by everyone and I am learning so much.
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Old 26-12-2014, 13:33   #129
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Re: Capsized Atlantic 57 Salvaged

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Polux answered my slightly off topic question. Can I ask you guys to get along? This has been an honest thread pretty much by everyone and I am learning so much.
Polux answered your question incorrectly though. The correct answer is: it depends.

If a cat and a tri were the same beam, and the same weight, they'd have the same righting moment. Even though, as you said, half of the cat's weight is in the "pivot" hull. Because the other half is right out at the other end, not in the middle like on a tri.

Both boats' CG would be in the middle. Same beam, same CG location, same weight = same righting moment.

The tri will be harder to capsize only if it is wider.
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Old 26-12-2014, 13:35   #130
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Re: Capsized Atlantic 57 Salvaged

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.. For instance, someone was talking about the forces involved in accidental gybes. If you'd only sailed a monohull you'd be unlikely to know how much difference the long traveller on a cat makes to this scenario. On a mono it's quite frightening, and potentially dangerous. On a cat like ours, it's pretty much a non-event.
Providing you are near it sailing the boat and are not on autopilot while doing something else that is what most cruisers do while sailing.

Do you mean when you are in a limit situation near a capsize you let go the traveller?

When you are really in trouble on a mono or a multihull you don't let the traveler go, you let lose all the sail (and boom). The traveler is useful to maintain the boat under control on guts while sailing, not on a limit situation.

Too much wind on a modern mono, gusting or not, is never a dangerous situation. Frightening can be, for an inexperienced sailor.
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Old 26-12-2014, 13:41   #131
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Re: Capsized Atlantic 57 Salvaged

Just two points; the ARC results that some forumers are refering to are completely irrelevant. This is all the way downwind (althought some years was not), motoring is free and more importantly everybody has a different mood of doing it. Being on the right spot on the right time to catch the best wind also plays a mojor role. In short, it doesn't say anything about the performance of the boat..
Some people are still discussing the potential speed of mono vs. catamarans. Apple to apple, the cat will always win to any wind direction. I had a chat with the skipper of Gunboat 62 when they visited our yard, his statement was clear: "we were never ever overtaken in any race by any mono which is shorter than us, including Volvo 60.." He said that they raced in some of the Caribeean regattas which consist of rounding the island,hence, sailing to any direction, not only down wind..

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Old 26-12-2014, 13:41   #132
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Re: Capsized Atlantic 57 Salvaged

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Providing you are near it sailing the boat and are not on autopilot while doing something else that is what most cruisers do while sailing.

Do you mean when you are in a limit situation near a capsize you let go the traveller?

When you are really in trouble on a mono or a multihull you don't let the traveler go, you let lose all the sail (and boom). The traveler is useful to maintain the boat under control on guts while sailing, not on a limit situation.

Too much wind on a modern mono, gusting or not, is never a dangerous situation. Frightening can be, for an inexperienced sailor.
I'll be honest here: I have absolutely no idea what you're trying to say.
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Old 26-12-2014, 13:42   #133
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Re: Capsized Atlantic 57 Salvaged

Alright 44- question: When a hull pops up in a cat, does the wind come up under it and help force it over? Does inertia may come to play- when that much weight is lifted up, does it tend to keep going?
A question also on pichpole movement- which I have seen on my own cats, is it less likely for a tri of the same size?
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Old 26-12-2014, 13:50   #134
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Re: Capsized Atlantic 57 Salvaged

Newt, on a cruising boat you don't normally ever lift a hull. Maybe people racing will, because that's the fastest way to sail, but cruising, no.


The contribution of wind under the hull would be miniscule compared to the sails. Depower the sails, and the hull will come down immediately.


Again, if a tri was the same weight, length, beam and had similar hulls, it would have similar characteristics. Pitchpoling is more a function of length and hull form.
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Old 26-12-2014, 13:51   #135
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Re: Capsized Atlantic 57 Salvaged

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Correct me if I am wrong, but it seems like Cats need less force to turtle than a tri. I am thinking because most of the weight is in the two hulls, and when a cat starts to turn over literally half of the weight is in the hull that is the pivot point and thus not a force in keeping the Cat upright. Tri's have most of the weight in the middle, thus when flipping it has most of the weight trying to keep it upright until 90 degrees or so is reached. Also are tri's wider per lenght than the 1:2 ratio that we hear so much about?
Assuming the same beam and same outer hull design, this is not the case. It's the difference between the center of bouyancy and the center of gravity. For both the center of gravity will be along the centerline. The tri though likely has a smaller outer hull.

No one is claiming a wider boat (cat or tri) won't have more capsize resistance.

With the tri's, it can get a bit complicated though. For most cats, one hull has sufficent bouyancy to stop the boat from sinking. Depending on the design, many tri's outer hulls will completely submerge before the main hull starts to fly. Once submerged if you fly a hull, a cartwheel around the sunk ama becomes a real concern.

Capsize reisistance is only apart of the picture.

Trying to predict what the wind will do when it gets under a hull (cat or tri) is a wild guess depending on angle, velocity and sea state.

Also, keep in mind the altantic 57 is a higher performance cat, where they value performance over capsize resistance. I believe the old Catalacs had a reward for anyone who could show one flying a hull and those had 2-1 length to beam ratios.
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