Capsized Atlantic 57 Salvaged

[Polux]

Originally Posted by s/v Beth

Correct me if I am wrong, but it seems like Cats need less force to turtle than a tri. I am thinking because most of the weight is in the two hulls, and when a cat starts to turn over literally half of the weight is in the hull that is the pivot point and thus not a force in keeping the Cat upright. Tri's have most of the weight in the middle, thus when flipping it has most of the weight trying to keep it upright until 90 degrees or so is reached. Also are tri's wider per lenght than the 1:2 ratio that we hear so much about?

Yes, I had already said that. They are not only normally beamier as the lower disposition of the cabin allows them a lower CG. Having the weight centralized on the central hull allows them to have a better stability curve, a less sharp one in what regards losing stability at high degrees of heel. That means that one has considerably more time to react on a critical situation (near capsize) on a trimaran than on a cat.

[robert sailor]

Polux we just had dinner with Alex Thomson's Father Peter and he tells us that his Son will be racing Open 60 monohulls with foils that can kick off 30 knots plus, maybe pushing 40. Fair bit of speed for a mono.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

OK, forget the "fuse"
Why not a winch with an adjustable "drag" just like a good fishing reel, if it starts to creep out, add a little drag, get hit with a big gust of wind, just like a the fishing reel, it lets out line? I'd like that on my mono hull.
My Penn SW30's are even two speed, couldn't be hard to scale it up?

Why do you need that on your monohull? When you are hit by a gust the boat heels, you try to compensate with the rudder, if it is too much the boat will take care of that: It will just round up and will turn to the wind...where you can reef your sails, if needed, or just bring it back to the wind and continue to have fun. A round up is not a dangerous thing on a modern sailboat.

[a64pilot]

I can see the very real possibility of being hit with a big gust of wind when I am not at the helm, I'd rather the main just ease itself out as opposed to being knocked down or even rounding up.
But mostly to comment on that I believe a mono could benefit from such a device and to try to not give the belief that I was trying somehow to knock Cat's, which I can assure you, I am not.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by robert sailor

Polux we just had dinner with Alex Thomson's Father Peter and he tells us that his Son will be racing Open 60 monohulls with foils that can kick off 30 knots plus, maybe pushing 40. Fair bit of speed for a mono.

So he goes to foilsOn my blog I had just posted about that: Who was going to be the first one that goes trying with foils. Also a post about those foils (DSS).

I am not sure that it works on the long run, I mean on a circumnavigation. Due to the foil shape if you broke one, no way you can substitute it, while with a daggerboard it is easy. Anyway the two next years till the Vendee Globe will be fun and we will see a lot of experimentation on those boats.

Alex is starting a non stop duo circumnavigation, the Barcelona world race and he and his team mate are one of the favorites. Good luck to him. He deserves a victory, kind of having bad luck on the last years. Well of a sailor.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by smj

From what I've heard, a catamaran is more likely to capsize due to wind, where a tri is more likely to trip over its ama and capsize due to wave.

Yes, but you really have to try hard for that

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QP-67_sPgGc

[Agility]

The best way to avoid a capsize besides seamanship on an Chris White cat is the mastfoil rig.


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[malbert73]

Originally Posted by 2Hulls

Just be careful which cat you pick a fight with. Let me know when you're ready....

2 Hulls Dave

Ha! My little 40 footer is no match for a Catana 47, except perhaps in a drifter.
However, it's not valid to compare same length mono to multi. I believe one could buy a 55-60 foot mono for the price of a 47 foot cat, with similar accommodations, and I am pretty sure all around performance would slightly favor the mono (assuming a more modern similarly performance minded mono to your Catana. Eg dufour)
This ignores the many cat advantages that have been discussed ad nauseum on this forum elsewhere, god forbid this thread goes down that path.


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[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by Polux

Yes, I had already said that. They are not only normally beamier as the lower disposition of the cabin allows them a lower CG. Having the weight centralized on the central hull allows them to have a better stability curve, a less sharp one in what regards losing stability at high degrees of heel. That means that one has considerably more time to react on a critical situation (near capsize) on a trimaran than on a cat.

You seem like a real expert on cat's and tri's. How many tens of thousands of miles have you sailed these types?

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by malbert73

Ha! My little 40 footer is no match for a Catana 47, except perhaps in a drifter.
However, it's not valid to compare same length mono to multi. I believe one could buy a 55-60 foot mono for the price of a 47 foot cat, with similar accommodations, and I am pretty sure all around performance would slightly favor the mono (assuming a more modern similarly performance minded mono to your Catana. Eg dufour)
This ignores the many cat advantages that have been discussed ad nauseum on this forum elsewhere, god forbid this thread goes down that path.


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We sailed in company with a 50 foot Beneteau on our 44 foot cat. Over a 50 mile sail to windward, admittedly in conditions that did suit us, generally around 15 knots breeze, we were more than 2 hours faster. Then we discovered they had run their engine the whole way.....

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by malbert73

Good idea.
However, what about shock loads like an uncontrolled gybe? I imagine those could exceed the static loads of a wind gust. Sure wouldn't want the loose boom slamming into the rigging...


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Again, can be done simply and cheaply. You have a spectra loop that will break, and a bigger loop that will allow the main to depower, but not fly free.

Anyway, accidental gybes on cat's are usually quite tame. because of the wide traveller, there isn't usually a lot of loose sheet out, so the boom doesn't get to travel far enough to build up any real speed. And the boom doesn't get to travel the whole width of the boat out of control.

[malbert73]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

We sailed in company with a 50 foot Beneteau on our 44 foot cat. Over a 50 mile sail to windward, admittedly in conditions that did suit us, generally around 15 knots breeze, we were more than 2 hours faster. Then we discovered they had run their engine the whole way.....

I don't doubt it. That said, your cat is considerably higher tech than a beneteau, right?


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[Polux]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

You seem like a real expert on cat's and tri's. How many tens of thousands of miles have you sailed these types?

You don't need to have any considerable mileage on cats or trimarams to know basic stuff about their comparable performance or stability characteristics and you can have circumnavigated on a cat and have experience on trimarans without understanding their difference in what regards final stability for the simple reason that except if you are a top racing multihull offshore sailor you don't sail big cats or big trimarans to almost capsizing conditions or actually capsized them.

But if you have some sailing experience and know enough about boat design those different characteristics are obvious.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

We sailed in company with a 50 foot Beneteau on our 44 foot cat. Over a 50 mile sail to windward, admittedly in conditions that did suit us, generally around 15 knots breeze, we were more than 2 hours faster. Then we discovered they had run their engine the whole way.....

With 15k of breeze a 50ft Beneteau running the engine the whole time? You should measure up against some guys that actually knows how to sail

Anecdotal evidence means nothing, you have to have lots of boats, cats and monohulls on the same cruising conditions over a relatively long period of time and under different sailing conditions (more or less wind) to be able to take some meaningful conditions.

This year under the right conditions I won more than half an hour on 50nm over a brand new jeanneau 57 with my 41ft monohull. The same Jeanneau 57 on the ARC+ was faster than all the cats including some high performance ones like two outremer 51, a Catana 50 and some bigger ones like a Fountain Pajot 67 and a Lagoon 620.

That does not mean that my boat, even if very well sailed, could be faster than that Jeanneau 57 over a long run like a transat, with many different wind and sea conditions. In fact it wouldn't, the Jeanneau 57 even if not a true true performance cruiser is a fast boat and even a performance cruiser faster then my boat (bigger then mine but much smaller than the Jeanneau) was not able to out-sail it, even if that one, if it was better sailed could be a close match. I am talking about a Xp44 that was only slightly beaten by the much bigger cats, by one of the Outremer 51 and a Catana 50, but outsailed the other Outremer 51 and the Catana 471, both considerably bigger sailingboats.

To have a good idea of a real boat performance on cruising conditions on the long rune this kind of information, that I have collected over the years, is more valid then any Anecdotal isolated piece of information, like the one you posted regarding your boat being faster then an Oceanis 50 that it was so badly sailed that with 15K of wind was running the engine. Not meaning that your boat is not faster than an Oceanis 50, at least on most conditions, only that type of isolated information has very little meaning.

[Sand crab]

Polux, you should put your boat and details under your avatar so we know what you have.