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IdoraKeeper · 09-11-2017, 14:00

My nephew races 49er's... Goes swimming a lot.. Has crashed every way possible.. He thinks it's great! You better be in good shape though... Myself, I don't like tearing things up or swimming in winter.:-)

Dave_S · 09-11-2017, 14:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by billknny

Virtually everybody else in the world gets along just fine without those special racing skills that for some reason you need to "save your life."

Wonder why that is?

That would be an interesting statistic. The number of skilled drivers in fatal accidents Vs unskilled drivers.

A driving test that everyone passes isn't much of a qualification.

tp12 · 09-11-2017, 14:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by catsketcher

Regardless of whether Seaslug posted this for nefarious reasons it brings up an interesting point. This discussion has little nuance. There are two camps that find it hard to see the limitations of our boats.

Sure you can get hurt on monos but monos get pushed all the time and few sink. They lie flat and they get back up again. You make a mistake and the boat forgives you with a short sharp shock and then you reduce sail and get on with the race again. This forgiveness means that you can race with less chance of a really bad event. In dinghies you can capsize and get up and maybe still win a race. You can crash and still finish.

That is the difference here. You can "crash" a mono and keep racing. Crash a multi and it spoils your day and your wallet. I like racing all boats but I do feel that multi lovers need to understand the limitations of the boats we like. Events like this happen because of the very lack of vices that cats have. This makes them great cruisers when not pushed hard but for some, maybe the majority of sailors, less useful racing boats.

Monos don't always lay flat and come back up again without any damage or injury, there's still plenty of risk in that. They don't have to go over to get damaged either. A Ker 46 recently lost its carbon mast with a full crew at night well offshore because they were pushing very hard in 35'ish knots and the spinnaker pole hit the forestay. They were incredibly lucky they only had some minor injuries, all crew stayed aboard and the mast didn't hole the boat. They had to be rescued.

Does any skipper go racing in a multi without knowing there's a risk of capsize and wallet puckering damage? Maybe, but I'd wager it's a very small percentage. I've heard it said in bike racing that you should never race a bike you're not prepared to throw in a skip and walk away from. I think it is generally accepted that racing breaks things and people.

I'm on main on our boat and I race with the sheet in my hand to dump if we get over powered, the same as any other boat I see out there. The majority of multis racing I've seen have had the same, one crew dedicated to main. Of course we all make mistakes. It's not as dangerous as racing the isle of man and I wouldn't stop that.

tp12 · 09-11-2017, 14:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seaslug Caravan

Could it be because of repeated events like the one discussed here.

What about this one from a Wednrsday ??? weeks ago.

Was this a built to spec racer?

One cruiser racer (Rush hour) one cruiser (oram) Both bigger boats and both over on a wednesday night social race. It appears that the style of boat has little to do with these outcomes. Its how the boat is sailed.

Hence the reminder in the OP.

Lets all stay safe.

Just, wow.

Fancy that...it's how a boat is sailed...such insight!

Don't forget people, when you're out cruising don't forget to not race and push the boat at 10/10ths.

A worthy reminder indeed

smj · 09-11-2017, 15:41

Mr. Slug, instead of sitting behind your computer reporting on doom and gloom why don't you actually try what your reporting about? Trust me, those chicken feathers will blow of you in the first 15-20 kts. of wind you encounter and you may actually enjoy it!

Polux · 09-11-2017, 17:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by donradcliffe

The french 50 ft tri Drekan Groupe had a little oopsie last night in the middle of the North Atlantic. All are safe and sound, but its more ammo for the conservative group in the CYCA.

https://www.transatjacquesvabre.org/...groupe-capsize

On the last 20 years a big number of French offshore trimarans, many bigger than the Multi 50, had capsized while racing or trying to beat records. That is no reason for stop them racing. All know that on a multihull there is always a capsize risk, a bigger one if it is a faster and light one and there are no more light neither fast than the racing ones.

For each one capsized much more have finished their races and transats safely.

As I had said before the multi50 (50ft) the type of the one that capsized, is the smaller offshore racing multihull used by the French and therefore it is the one more subject to a capsize risk.

Polux · 09-11-2017, 18:01

A description of the capsize of the 50ft trimaran on the transat Jaques Vabre by the skipper:

“We were sailing downwind under one reef with the little gennaker. We were going to roll up the little gennaker. I was below and Chris (Christopher Pratt) was on deck. I was preparing to go out, to take in another reef. The boat pitchpoled, (plunging forward and flipping over). It was blowing hard, we were under a squall in a pitch-black night, but we were being very cautious. "

Factor · 10-11-2017, 13:24

A report from the Skipper/Owner of Rushour: (From Sailing Anarchy, RQYS news and numerous other locations)

Quote:

Forecast was for 20kn se wind. We set the boat up with one reef and self tacking heady. THIS CONFIGURATION IS VERY MANAGEABLE IN 20KN.

We started sailing to windward with the intention of building speed then bearing away to go downwind. Main traveller was fully down and a crew member was holding the main sheet.

Speed built very quickly as we got hit by a big gust (40 kn). Hull started to come up, main was completely dumped but hull kept climbing. I (helm) turned up to feather the sails but response was slow because all drive was coming from the heady and the bows were pressed.

Boat capsized sideways. Whole thing took maybe 5 seconds.

Mistakes: Bloody B&G wind instruments were not working so no appreciation of building breeze. (Rushour commonly does 20kn on a shy reach so 30kn of wind across the boat seems normal.)
We never normally hold the jib sheet. (obviously a mistake)
We were rushed with some inexperienced crew and I never allocated roles.
I was complacent. I never even come close to even flying the hull high on the new Rushour.
The gust of wind combined with boat speed gave approx 55 kn over the deck which was obviously enough to capsize a 7 ton boat.
The wing mast may have contributed to the capsize.
lucky we were only in 4m of water and Rushour has a very strong wingmast so we were able to attach ropes to the high hull and tow her around so the bows were pointing into the wind and towed her over.

The bottom hull was flooded and that helped to right the boat. You need a very big tow boat to pull a big cat over. We used a commercial cat Cat of Nine Tails to pull her up.

We had her upright about 2 to 3 hours after capsize. I would not want to go through that in the open ocean. A huge thank you to all the people who rallied around and helped right, retrieve, clean the boat, and for all the messages.

fxykty · 10-11-2017, 14:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Factor

A report from the Skipper/Owner of Rushour: (From Sailing Anarchy, RQYS news and numerous other locations)

Just one observation - he reports that the hull kept lifting despite dumping the main so he tried to feather up, but it was a slow turn due to the loaded jib and the hull kept lifting.

This attempt to turn to windward kept the leeward hull loaded and added rotational force to the lifting force on the windward hull, hence the hull kept lifting to capsize.

In my XL2 days (a 40 foot racing cat), as well as in Hobies, if you’re moving fast and your hull is lifting out of control the best steering response is to sharply turn downwind. The turning moment at speed provides a huge amount of force that pushes the windward hull down (actually, I think the force is acting to lift the leeward hull, but the effect is the same regardless).

This is counterintuitive, but well known among monohull dinghy and skiff and beach catamaran racers.

Of course, once you’ve finished turning downwind you’re now at the mercy of your sail area, boat speed potential, wind speed, and waves. If any of those are out of balance, instead of capsizing you pitch pole. Probably a worse outcome for a large cat. Though of course you’ve minimised the apparent wind speed so if it’s a short-lived gust you may get be OK. But if you need to reef your main, you’re out of luck.

All that said, for the monohull cat-haters, Rushour was RACING, so had more sail area up and was sailing much more aggressively than anyone cruising would knowingly sail. This capsize has much less relevance to cruising catamarans as compared to the loss of Cheeki Rafiki’s keel does for cruising monohulls.

Cherod · 10-11-2017, 15:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seaslug Caravan

From todays WAGS at RYCQ??

anyone wanna go racing on sunday,, oh , btw,, don't bring the wifey or your kids, don't bring the dog or the cat nor your granny, if you cant swim or don't like speed or calling a taxi from an un prearranged point then give it a miss,, ok,, lets go

PhiSig1071 · 10-11-2017, 16:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by billknny

Virtually everybody else in the world gets along just fine without those special racing skills that for some reason you need to "save your life."

Wonder why that is?

I have quite a bit of motorcycle experience (MSF RiderCoach, JSMSP Certified, AHRMA Road Racing License, attended numerous racing and riding schools, been on a racetrack more time than I can count, ridden in multiple countries, both dirt and street, probably have somewhere around 100k miles on two wheels, owned dozens of different motorcycles) and not quite as much 4-wheel experience (but I'm getting closer) I can say without equivocation that operating a motor vehicle, car or motorcycle, on a closed course will make you a better, more skilled, and safer operator of the same on surface streets. How do you prove a negative? How do you prove the number of accidents that have been avoided because of driver skill? I can't help but think that the same concept applies itself equally to sailing.

Cavalier MK2 · 10-11-2017, 19:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cherod

anyone wanna go racing on sunday,, oh , btw,, don't bring the wifey or your kids, don't bring the dog or the cat nor your granny, if you cant swim or don't like speed or calling a taxi from an un prearranged point then give it a miss,, ok,, lets go

Nothing like separating the wheat from the chaff! You'll go faster without the extras.

The breezy rule of thumb is supposed to be hand held sheets and jam cleats if you are pushing it....

44'cruisingcat · 10-11-2017, 23:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by catsketcher

Sure you can get hurt on monos but monos get pushed all the time and few sink.

But when they do sink, they're usually gone, forever.

And the reality is relatively few cats capsize. Consider that we have a member here who constantly scours the internet looking for multihull disasters, and how few he actually manages to come up with.