The Death of the Ketch ?

[beiland]

Owner’s Comments:


THE GREAT WANDERING ALBATROSS, Diomedea Exulans according to Linnaeus, long puzzled scientists by sustaining flight without movement of the wings. In the light of modern analysis the bird is seen to accomplish a wonderously elegant maneuver based on his extraordinary aerodynamic efficiency—which only “appears” to be perpetual motion (But it surely does look like it until a vector analysis is made of the wind velocity gradient). Modem sailors are much more puzzled by the vessel which bears this name. She is, perhaps, best described as a “staysail ketch.”

Her arrangement was devised to reduce—or eliminate work on the physical limitations, and to take advantage of the aerodynamic efficiency of sails with wire leading edges (having no spar at the leading edge)—this efficiency to compensate the penalties for high freeboard and great beam. At the same time it permitted all sail management, including hoisting, lowering and reefing to be accomplished from the cockpit leaves the cockpit except to “unreef” or to get a gasket on the mainstaysail after lowering.

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/sai...tml#post198608

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by beiland

Owner’s Comments:


THE GREAT WANDERING ALBATROSS, (...) “staysail ketch.”

WHOA!

What a beautiful thing!

Is the boat still around? Is there any other boat with the same rig?

b.

[minaret]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

WHOA!

What a beautiful thing!

Is the boat still around? Is there any other boat with the same rig?

b.

For many years I knew a boat at Elliot Bay Marina in Seattle, named Havfruen, about 80' and with an all furling staysail ketch rig. She was sailed and handled quite well by her owners, a couple in their 80's at the time. A real stunner, she was always one of my favorite boats. Don't know what happened to her.

[Nicholson58]

Originally Posted by rolandgilbert99

I need more info on this, my ketch is rigged to have such a sail between the two masts, there is a yellow light sail in a bag I never took out, how do you set the sheets for it?

Here are really instructive views on one of our shister-ships. I rig my tack on a pair of short lines to port & starboard cleats so I can control how far to weather the tack sets. The boom must be pretty far out. The clew is sheeted well aft in accordance with the desired shape of the staysail. Its not for big wind. In wind up to about 15 true it adds 1 to 2 knots to the boat speed - and you look good! (main is 80 feet and mizzen is 48). The staysail is easy to rig, easy to fly and easy to douse.

[SkiprJohn]

Mizzen staysail tacking or jibing was a chore. Had to take down for each change of tack. I truly think that's the reason you don't see many used except for really long tacks.
kind regards,

[GaryMayo]

Originally Posted by markpierce

This couple will be sailing their ketch to Hawaii, and then "wherever", leaving the SF Bay Area this month. They have two spinnaker poles which they use to fly two jibs opposite each other for running downwind.

That is a great journey to embark on. Looks like a nice boat to complete the task. Envy.

[Southcoasting]

I am learning to sail this summer on my Tartan 27 Yawl and I have to say, I LOVE the yawl rig!

I have had guests that wanted to sail on the boat with kids in steady winds and the ability for me to throw up the jib furled and mizzen and sail with hardly any heeling is beautiful. Looking around me I see the sloops heeling excessively and I am keeping up with them in speed barely heeling...a huge plus is keeping the wife comfortable also!

I also love the ability to single hand without throwing up the main...It makes singlehanding super easy!

I have to say like others have said, going close hauled the mizzen does not do much if the main is also up, but without main up it does decent...but with beam reach and broad reach the mizzen puts in work but not sure it's enough to make a huge difference...

but the ability to just run the jib & mizzen in strong winds & for singlehanding is the main reason I love my setup! The boat stands out a little bit too which is also a pretty cool feeling...

[Nicholson58]

Originally Posted by SkiprJohn

Mizzen staysail tacking or jibing was a chore. Had to take down for each change of tack. I truly think that's the reason you don't see many used except for really long tacks.
kind regards,

i don't really see this as a problem. I drop the thing on the cabin top in front of the Bimini or drop it through the nearest hatch and re-hoist. No big deal - like - what else do you have to do? It takes longer to stuff it in the bag than to tack.

[IslandHopper]

Originally Posted by Nicholson58

i don't really see this as a problem. I drop the thing on the cabin top in front of the Bimini or drop it through the nearest hatch and re-hoist. No big deal - like - what else do you have to do? It takes longer to stuff it in the bag than to tack.

Agree totally i can only kill so much time contemplating the lack of fluff in my navel......

I don't have one for my current boat at the moment (near top of the list though). Had them on my previous two Ketches and flew the mizzen staysail every chance i got, but then again sail handling is one of the reasons for me to go sailing, i enjoy it......

[meuritt]

Fascinating read, and educational. My own theory about the development of the sloop is the simplicity. A causal person wanting a sailboat is less intimidated by one mast. Implied simplicity. A friend has a beautiful gaff ketch and has a hard time finding crew, it looks too hard. If they bother to go out they may find that yes, there are twice as many halyards on the main, the mizz is mutton, but once up there is less frittering about than the boats they are more accustomed to, and if he has the air, and willing crew, required to set the square sail they find it is a set and forget sail that is very easy to deploy and take down, unlike the spinnaker. With that rig up he sailed right through a race with their spinnakers set, with a crew of two. My own motor sailor ketch, very similar to the Fisher above, doesn't go to windward, at all, reaching is great, and unless I put the spinnaker up it doesn't even relish the dead down wind. We've been playing with sail plans and find at 35k wind the jib and mizzen, even a reefed mizzen with the jib can drive her to hull speed, still looking for more opportunities to try out other options for high winds. We have a jib from a smaller boat that we use as a mizzen staysail. Large fritter factor, I can only use it with experienced crew, but then it is the same with the spinnaker, which we have two, one for each mast. It actually helps us a few degrees closer to windward, I assume because it directs some of the main's air around the large pilot house. Recently we hung it upside down where it worked better off the wind, but, like the mizzen, it still pushed the stern around in a puff, but not as much. Real fritter factor learning to use it, but it is fun, as are all the sail options. We've only flown the mizzen spinnaker at the dock, mainly because we are still sorting out the main spinnaker. Once that is done, keep your eyes out for a very colorful boat going down wind, red spinnaker up front, yellow/white on the mizzen, or maybe the blue genny. Sail shopping on CL and marine swaps makes for a fashion nightmare. But we are sailing three of four trips a month and enjoying the heck out of it. No dock queen here.

[beiland]

I do realize this subject thread is in the monohull section, but when it come to rigs that are used on both hull forms, I believe this is applicable to this discussion.

Here is a VERY NICE ketch rig design on a 62' catamaran. Personally I would rather have this shorter rig on a cruising cat of this size rather than the much taller sloop rig that would be required to get the same sail area

[GaryMayo]

Originally Posted by beiland

I do realize this subject thread is in the monohull section, but when it come to rigs that are used on both hull forms, I believe this is applicable to this discussion.

Here is a VERY NICE ketch rig design on a 62' catamaran. Personally I would rather have this shorter rig on a cruising cat of this size rather than the much taller sloop rig that would be required to get the same sail area

In my head I love to reinvent stuff. Make it different, make it better. I can see me purchasing a 24' catamaran someday, and cutting it in a starboard and a port half. Right down the middle. Then placing one outrigger on each side of my ketch. Doing this at a machine shop so it all looks factory. Maybe that would make my wife stop complaining about heeling. Lol

[charliehows]

there are a lot of reasons why the ketch rig is becoming more rare - on smaller yachts it doesnt really make sense any more given the combination of strong materials and the simplicity of a sloop rig - I think a ketch rig would start to make sense to me if i was single handing a 50+ft yacht - thats one reason for a ketch rig, means handling smaller sails. Also makes it easier to react to increasing wind strength, easy to just drop a sail, either the main or the mizzen depanding on the conditions. On a smaller boat you've also got the cost factor - extra mast and sail is a big cost hike. Also i doubt whether a ketch rig is going to work very well with a narrow fin keel and flat bottom. having said all that, I'm pretty happy with my little ketch...I dont know if this is a feature of other ketches but if i drop my mizzen running up to the wind the boat just steers itself, wont round up, wont run off.

[beiland]

Originally Posted by GaryMayo

In my head I love to reinvent stuff. Make it different, make it better. I can see me purchasing a 24' catamaran someday, and cutting it in a starboard and a port half. Right down the middle. Then placing one outrigger on each side of my ketch. Doing this at a machine shop so it all looks factory. Maybe that would make my wife stop complaining about heeling. Lol

Somewhere I saw a photo of just such a modification...on a Scandinavian vessel I believe.

Yes many women prefer non-heeling.

[GaryMayo]

Originally Posted by beiland

Somewhere I saw a photo of just such a modification...on a Scandinavian vessel I believe.

Yes many women prefer non-heeling.

Spoke with an engineering student that buys and sells Hobie Cat parts and referbs them to sell. He tells me the larger common 16 or 22 foot Hobie Cats may not be buoyant enough for such a project.

Looking back at 55 plus years, my life has been one build project after another. Maybe this is a good first project to walk away from. All the seen and unseen forces that would come into play with a 30 mph gust of wind. Why spoil an already perfect design.

I do think it would be fun to purchase one of those older articulating trihulls and sail it. May do that.

Here is a couple I saw about a year ago rotting away in dry dock storage