The Death of the Ketch ?

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by beiland

Not exactly a 'performance' multihull, but here is Chris Whites take on a ketch rigged multihull.

....excerpts from Chris White’s sailing report aboard his client’s Concept 63, ketch rigged catamaran design HERON
__________________________________________________ _________[/B][/I]

While I am not a great fan of catamarans nor of ketch rigs, that looks and sounds like a really nice boat! Chris White's designs have a lot going for them in general... including price tags well beyond most pockets depths.

Don't know if Heron qualifies as a high performance design, but it would satisfy my cravings for speed.

But really, here in Oz there are not many places where one could berth such a footprint, and the cost of doing so would be astronomical.

Nice, though...

Cheers,

Jim

PS: The fact that the comments are from Chris himself couldn't influence things, could it?

[IslandHopper]

If the finances allowed i would place an order for one of these today, what the hell i still use paper charts so there’s little hope for me anyhow.....

Ketches rule....

Alubat 58, the ketch from Chantier Alubat designed by Philippe Briand - YouTube

[markpierce]

Originally Posted by Randyonr3

before you go pointing fingers at others, you may want to know, we all get a good chuckle whenever we see your boat on the water.. last comments around the bar were if you were comming or going to or from the dark side and couldnt make up your mind..

Happy to hear you all find me amusing.

[micah719]

It's just envy....as a motor sailer, you can use your iron topsail or your cloth turbo without being accused of hypocrisy. Besides, you're on the water, and can't hear the barflies buzzing....good place to be!

[kaimusailing]

Rig development progressed to gaff cutters and then marconi rigs. The problem of hull shape with wine glass cross sections and thinner keels was solved by Herreshoff. Sailboats continually evolve and not all attempts at improvement stick around. Generally speaking, thin tall sails work better upwind and fat round sails work better downwind. The tall sloop rig is good to windward and with a chute, good downwind.
In the old days it was difficult to build and stay a tall mast successfully on a narrow hull. Having a lower rig, lower aspect ratio sails, and two masts (or more) was a sensible solution. The modern fin keel windward boat only evolved when sail cloth could be made to take advantage of narrower angles with higher loads on the rig and the sails to keep a flat shape. This evolution has continued in racing boats, while cruising boats have from time to time made other improvements. I'm surprised no one has mentioned the cat ketches that were popular a few years ago.
I have a Wharram catamaran, and windward work is to be avoided. Why even try to use a high aspect sloop rig on it? It's a reaching machine. Earlier in these posts someone mentioned Wharram's ketch rigs, but it is actually a schooner rig with two equal sized dutch gaff rigged sails. It is a compromise benefitting from low center of effort, ease of construction (they are almost all DIY and it's easier to build a smaller mast and if you have to build two, easier to build two identical masts), but there are downsides. The gaff rig has more running rigging and is more work to set sail.
I'd rather not have the extra weight, which is important on a catamaran, with an extra mast. The ketch sailor on our dock seems to have problems designing a bimini, wind generator installation, and solar panel installation, due to the mizzen overhanging the stern and its boom and wires getting in the way. Also he has a wind vane, but hasn't figured out how to put that on.
Another fellow at the dock has a S&S centerboard sloop, a nice boat that sails like a dream upwind with its board down. His cockpit is open and a lot of space is available for his bimini and he is ordering solar panels. He already has a wind generator spinning away.
I like my cutter rig on the catamaran. Lots of sail area and easy to singlehand. Big roller furling genoa up front and the staysail work is done on a foredeck that is 22 ft wide.
The reasons that ketches are not being built have already been gone over extensively. I've read all the postings. If you can get a ketch at an attractive price, then there is no reason not to get it, if it fits your other requirements. It is a good cruising rig, good for reaching off to the islands, provides possibilities for a deck tent in the tropics, and looks great coming into port full sail.

[Nicholson58]

Originally Posted by Blue Stocking

If for no other reason, you want a split rig to fly "nature's sail", the mizzen staysail.

Yahoo! Love my mizzen staysail.

[GaryMayo]

I am blown away at all the knowledge in this thread. Moderators and admins should take notice that a Multi Mast forum here would serve the interests of a great many, as evidenced in this thread.

I would like to thank one and all for such a vibrant and alive volley of information. Wimbledon was not this good. Frankly, I knew I loved my 32 ketch, but people in these posts took it from an emotion and gave it reason and logic.

I love to watch sailboats ever as much as I love being on one. Seeing a double masted sailboat is a real treat, and anyone wanting to borrow mine, anytime, so I can get proper photographs of it, will be welcomed.

This photograph somehow brings to mind the meaning of all the masts grouped together, waiting to take flight.

[Nicholson58]

The split rigs and ability to hoist extra material nearer to the water is diminshed by the extremely light modern construction. Add to this the push to simplify and reduce cost.

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by Nicholson58

Yahoo! Love my mizzen staysail.

The ability to set a mizzen staysail is often quoted as a significant advantage to the ketch rig. We sail i n the presence of lots of ketch rigged boats here in the SW Pacific, and in all my years sailing (here and back on the West coast of the USA) I have NEVER seen such a sail being used at sea. Actually, we often see ketches with no mizzen sail at all, or with one bent on but not hoisted. Leads one to wonder if folks really mean what they say about the advantages of the split rig!

The photos attached to N58's post show one in use, so obviously it does happen, but in the cruising world it seems a rare event.

Cheers,

Jim

[GaryMayo]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

The ability to set a mizzen staysail is often quoted as a significant advantage to the ketch rig. We sail i n the presence of lots of ketch rigged boats here in the SW Pacific, and in all my years sailing (here and back on the West coast of the USA) I have NEVER seen such a sail being used at sea. Actually, we often see ketches with no mizzen sail at all, or with one bent on but not hoisted. Leads one to wonder if folks really mean what they say about the advantages of the split rig!

The photos attached to N58's post show one in use, so obviously it does happen, but in the cruising world it seems a rare event.

Cheers,

Jim

On my lake there is a sloop that sails as much or more than any other sailboat on the water, and more times than not, he does all his sailing with his roller furling and not touching his main. People get into patterns and procedures. Ruts.

Me, I put it all up weather permitting. Thinking of changing the rigging to a cutter, when I lengthen the bowsprit and add a roller furling. Not that I sail much in high winds, but on her stats sheet it will look good, and for the yearly Xmas photo. Lol

[micah719]

Wimbledon was not this good.

Is that a regatta?

[rolandgilbert99]

Originally Posted by Nicholson58

Yahoo! Love my mizzen staysail.

I need more info on this, my ketch is rigged to have such a sail between the two masts, there is a yellow light sail in a bag I never took out, how do you set the sheets for it?

[SkiprJohn]

My mizzen staysail was tacked to a pad eye on the cabin top to windward of the mast and boom (there were two pad eyes one on each side of the mast). The head was hauled up a halyard on the mizzen mast. The sheet was attached to the aft end of the mizzen boom so to adjust the sheet you had a cleat at the forward end of the mizzen boom and could ease or take in there or you could let the mizzen boom in or out to sheet the staysail. Once you've seen it flown properly and use it you'll be hooked.
I used mine interisland and also across the Pacific but it was more or less a light wind sail.
I certainly appreciated my ketch but also like the simpler less costly sloop rig.
kind regards,

[beiland]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

The ability to set a mizzen staysail is often quoted as a significant advantage to the ketch rig. We sail i n the presence of lots of ketch rigged boats here in the SW Pacific, and in all my years sailing (here and back on the West coast of the USA) I have NEVER seen such a sail being used at sea. Actually, we often see ketches with no mizzen sail at all, or with one bent on but not hoisted. Leads one to wonder if folks really mean what they say about the advantages of the split rig!

The photos attached to N58's post show one in use, so obviously it does happen, but in the cruising world it seems a rare event.
Jim

My own experience; I have been the owner of a few sailboats, and one of them was a ketch-rigged vessel…more specifically a staysail-cutter ketch. For a cruising boat I really liked this ketch rig. It broke my total sail area down into more manageable size sails, it lowered my overall rig height, it allowed for helm balance by ‘tweaking’ the mizzen sail, it allowed for ‘mainless’ sailing under headsail/mizzen combo, and, had it been roller furling, it would have been even easier to sail single-hand.

I went thru a particularly nasty offshore storm on my way from the Chesapeake Bay to the Vigin Islands (60 knots for 2.5 days). Initially we ran off downwind with just the small staysail, then upon full fatigue by 3 of us I decided to turn back upwind, lying slightly upwind under a backed staysail and reefed mizzen for a good 12 hr rest.

What did I dislike? I always thought the cutter staysail jib was too small, and it was marginalized by its too-close proximity to the headsail. And I was disappointed in the strip-area of the mainsail behind the spar that appeared to do nothing for forward drive. Now remember this was back in 1973, 35 years ago. I searched out as much info as I could find on cutter-rigged vessels, and then developed some new thoughts on a new rig....

BTW, I believe someone above posted something to the effect that ketch rigs couldn't be made self-tending....

[sabray]

I single handed my 40 foot ketch up and down the east coast US No auto pilot or for that matter gps. The mizzen for me was first up coming off anchor and then either the stsl or gennie. I then would choose how much main. The boat by design probably was not the best design but could be balanced.
In retrospect I do similar on my cutter rigged sloop. Main is first when sailing off then choice of jibs and furlers add more. Ketch had hank on. Current slioop will balance very well. Not quite as the ketch. My sloop has much better design more efficient a touch more likely to get thrown off balance. Now we're talking about keel design too so it's not apples to grapes. Uhh oranges.
I loved my mizzen stsl flew it often. It was a light air sail. Never would think of that much canvas up in a blow. Beside it was very light ounce it ran from the mains deck collar to the top of the mizzen. Similar set up as described it was clewed to the mizzen boom and had a separate sheet that could be adjusted.
I don't think the ketch is dead.