The Death of the Ketch ?

[Coops]

Originally Posted by Randyonr3

Always figured, if you have to put a second stick in the air, you screwed up on the design...................

So, in that case, Herreschoff, John Alden, and numerous others are just screw-ups?

Coops.

[TeddyDiver]

As I understood the "nonstop" requirement means a few things to consider.
You can't count on weather windows so your boat must be seaworthy beyond any B's (no fence)
You must have enough room and capacity for provisions, again beyond...
Boat have to be selftendering as much as possible (notwanting to repeat myself but again..)
Of course allmost anyone can circumnavigate with most production boats but then you got to live with the limitations of the design. However that doesn't change the facts nor make the boat to a bluewatercruiser..

[goboatingnow]

Firstly many standard production boats have circumnavigated , including one of our CF members own, single handed for an Atlantic crossing in a beneteaus 393 ( a death trap according to the fogies) he derided the fogies comments regularly

Long keels were a function of wooden construction techniques, ketches were popularised by club racing rules that didn't count mizzen area. Nothing that has to do with sailing ability , long overhangs have nothing to do with seaworthiness they were rule beaters. Most traditional working sail boats had vertical stems and quite wide transoms. Why , because it worked, not that it was easy on the eye.

Why did ketches die off. , well in the 35 to 55 foot range the mizzen was never big enough to matter, and it slowed the boat going to windward.

Secondly improved technology in sail handling has made sloops easier to use

The fact is a well rigged sloop is also simply faster then a ketch, on all points of sail, there hasn't been a ocean racer since steinlager that was ketch rigged. Get over it. If you like ketches sail them, but don't tell me there are any better ( in most cases they are worse) ( see Beth and Evans comments when they switched from a ketch to a sloop, but hey don't listen to anyone that might know anything ) show me the long overhangs on Dashews boats. !!

In larger boats there is still some advantages To ketches as the apace allows a good mizzen area and the separation distance between the masts allows a proper mizzen stay sail

As to the fogies that rabbit on about sea worthiness. I have delivered boats all over the place mostly out of season. I've proberly by this stage sailed through more storms that most cruisers meet in a lifetime. I also live above 55 degree north. We get f8-f10 s in summer for gods sake. Are all the boats here long keeled with overhangs , of course not. In Europe that design has virtually disappeared. Tell me a 2day sail in Atlantic coastal waters , on a lee shore with 55knots of wind over the deck is of less consequence then a milk run across a tropic ocean. Please.

To my mind most that crititise , have never sailed anywhere challenging and are armchair pundits. Go into harbours around the world at circumnavigation hot points, what do you see, loads of Euro production cruisers.

Why do Taiwan or Chinese built US styled boats not sell at all in Europe , reason , few like them , most distrust far east builds and they look old fashioned. If they were good we have loads of them ( in the same way the US builders dominate the small sports boat market in Europe) . They look nice to my eye , but hats about it.

Seaworthiness is not about keels or rudders.

In the US , which is by comparison a tiny sailing nation, there is a penchant for retro-design for no good reason other then "taste" . In profilic sailing nations like the scandavians , the French and new Zealand you will see no such trend they sail fast moden designs , they sail them everywhere , they also win every damm race on the planet.

I was in Madeira when the rally iles du soleil came in , was there a long keel amongst them , not that I could see, all production sloops and cats.


I like long overhangs I like like the older looks too, I also like steam locomotives and paddle steamers. I however want to travel from A to B on a TGV. I like old aircraft as well, I fly to the US on an airbus however.

Technology has played a part in boat design since man picked up an adze. To ignore modern nautical design, with finite stress analysis , advanced computer modelling of water flow , laminar design, advanced manufacturing is ridiculous. You mightn't like the look of it but that's a different argument. Boats today are stronger then ever. The worst GRP boat is stronger then any wooden boat anyway. ( size for size)

People talking about death traps really boil my blood, many 100s of thousands are sailing , incidents proportionally are lower then before, serious loss of life is rare. ( and often nothing to do with the quality of boat)


I've sailed long keels that were dogs , I've sailed fins that were were poor, I've seen Skeg hung rudders fail and virtually take the Skeg off, I seen problems with spade rudders, well designed boats perform well, badly designed less so.

This obsession, mainly US centric with older designs always amuses Europeans, ( the French comment that Amel, " is an old persons boat ") these long keel debates rarely occur on European forums.

People talk about say Tayanas being seaworthy , yet look at the deck gear, look at the delamination, look at why so few are sold in Europe , even though they went to CE certification. Look at the number of specialised US makers selling sail boats in Europe. , it's nonexistent statistically. Why because the designs are outdated, overpriced and old fashioned . The fact is if they were right, they would sell 1000s. .

The more " traditional" designs tend to sell to people who " like the look " there's no evidence that these people are any better sailors or have more offshore experience, there is enough of these people to keep a few specialist builders in business, producing a few boats a year ( at very large markups )


Comments here about production sloops are myopic, misguided, based on a lack of knowledge and just plain wrong.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by TeddyDiver

As I understood the "nonstop" requirement means a few things to consider.
You can't count on weather windows so your boat must be seaworthy beyond any B's (no fence)
You must have enough room and capacity for provisions, again beyond...
Boat have to be selftendering as much as possible (notwanting to repeat myself but again..)
Of course allmost anyone can circumnavigate with most production boats but then you got to live with the limitations of the design. However that doesn't change the facts nor make the boat to a bluewatercruiser..

Most production sloops can be made into bluewatercruisers with simple modifications , you would do the same to any " long keeled" boat as well.

Most production sloops have more then enough " seaworthiness" to cross any ocean you desire

If you sail northern Atlantic Europe , you'll quickly learn what a " weather window" is, and why most production sloops handle conditions day in and day out, that you warm weather sailors see once in a lifetime ! A weather window here is 24 hours between fronts !!!.

Most production sloops have capacity for provisions, I've seen 100s sailed across the Atlantic. Whereas outside these large ocean crossing you do not need to take huge quantities of provisions ( funny thing there are shops and markets everywhere)

Self tending is a myth , I can sail modern sloops in weather that has traditional boats hove to. Most boats cannot self tend in survivial conditions.

You comments are based on myth , and viewpoint rather then the actual reality of what is really out there, sailing oceans every day.


Most boats spend 80 % of their time stopped at anchor or moored ( including so-called blue water cruisers) hence the majority of the design is to accommodate that fact. The boat is of course still capable of handling worst case conditions. But would you prefer to be uncomfortable 80 % of the time or 20% of the time ( assuming whatever you define as comfortable )

For example the rise of the double bed aft cabin is directly liked to comfort while stopped since few such design are good at sea. , but most people want their 80% comfort and will for example move to the saloon for a rough crossing.dies it make the design less " blue water" of course not , it merely reflects the desires of the owners.

Dave

[GaryMayo]

Finally a thread I can sink my teeth into.

I purchased a William Crealock design ketch, a Clipper Marine 32 aft cabin in April. Living in Nebraska, all sailboats have to be brought here from somewhere else as there are few sailboats to choose from. I happened on the very boat I was looking for, but figured I would never find. Found her in LA. Sitting on a trailer in a storage yard, three years. Asking price, $14,000. Selling price, $4,000. Counting everything, I have about $8,000 in her, and her restoration is almost complete. I did a survey on her, and she passed.

The surveyor asked me "why this boat, in this down market, you can have any boat brand you want for pennies on the dollar, why Clipper Marine? Why a ketch?" It was how I knew she could look again, that sold me on her. I purchased her only by photographs and a hunch this was the boat I wanted.

What is the magic of a ketch sailboat? Did you marry your wife because she cooked good, or because the way she made you feel when you looked at her? A sailboat is a mix of reality meets fantasy just like a good marriage.

My ketch is the best looking sailboat ever made. IMHO. Not the fastest, not the easiest to sail, not the safest.

The poster above me (goboatingnow) really knows the slide rule factor of why things work. But remember, function is only half the equation The other half is form. Styling, looks and feeling good about your boat is just as important.

Lots of hard work and time has gone into bringing her back to sailing condition. On my lake , she is the only ketch that I have seen on the docks. A ketch is not seen very often these days, and are getting hard to locate a good older one.

I also own a CM 32 sloop. The mast is heavier than the main mast on the ketch. A crane steps the mast on the sloop, two people step the lighter, shorter mast.

[TeddyDiver]

Wonder how this turned into overhangs? Nothing to do with ketch or not a ketch...

[Coops]

Could it be possible that production boats are also built as they are because it is cheaper/easier to do so and so make the company viable by selling lots of them? To build them "old style" is possibly a more expensive process and takes longer, therefore necessitating the "mark-up" required to stay in business. I have no axe to grind either way, i like the old fashioned look, but i like the modern interiors and comfort levels as well. So, i guess it comes down to what you fall in love with, but keep an open mind and allow someone else to love a boat that you would not.

Coops.

[Coops]

Originally Posted by TeddyDiver

Wonder how this turned into overhangs? Nothing to do with ketch or not a ketch...

Perhaps hangovers did it.

Coops.

[MacG]

All of them very slow ......... old as well as new......

The sailplan is of "Anakena" a Huisman build Ted Hood design ......

There are still ketches and schooners build, not only for esthetical reasons but also to the requirements of the principal owner. Particularly when seakeeping is a prime subject.

Older designs like Shamrock with their extreme overhangs and very long keel are as fast as any modern boat of that size.

Personally I would prefer the schooner rig - which comes very close according to weather and speed to the sloop rig.

Marie Cha is not really a ketch rig but a schooner rig. But she is one of the exisytent fastest monohulls.

[goboatingnow]

The poster above me (goboatingnow) really knows the slide rule factor of why things work. But remember, function is only half the equation The other half is form. Styling, looks and feeling good about your boat is just as important.

I dont deny it for a minute, absolutely buy the boat you like the look of. Then just accept that, its when people then try and tell you something built and designed in the 30's is better then today I begin to differ a lot.

Dave

[goboatingnow]

In reality mass production builders like Hanse and Beneteau could produce any style of boat they or their customers like , including "retro" styling. Sure "hand crafted" interiors wouldn't feature, but then hand crafted interiors is purely an aesthetic type of thing.

Boat styling tend to follow the countries predilections, Euro boats tend to follow a European style dynamic, that emphasis sleek interiors etc. This is what these customers have in their homes and what they want in their boats. North American homes tend to styled very differently and hence so are their boats.

But basic features such as hull strength , deck fittings are very similar across all typos of boats of similar size. Some companies have the technology (SCRIMP or closed moulds etc) to build to more exacting requirements. Thickness never equalled strength.

Whether you buys Hanse or a custom Oyster, you still get Yanmar or Volvo engines, Selden or other standards mast parts, standard sails, Lewmar or Harkin deck gear etc.

Small one off builders have to charge high markups, they simply haven't the buying power of groups like Beneteau, Beneteau can afford a higher value piece of equipment without reflecting this is the final price, whereas small builders do not. Equally small builders are little capital invested in production equipment, most work is by hand or hand assisted, hence labour, which in 1st world countries is expensive, dominates the cost of construction.

Then of course there is the premium price of the brand, Anyone who drives a Range Rover will know there isn't anything like 80Ks worth of extra engineering over say a Jeep ( there even may be less!).

Dave

[MacG]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

I dont deny it for a minute, absolutely buy the boat you like the look of. Then just accept that, its when people then try and tell you something built and designed in the 30's is better then today I begin to differ a lot.

Dave

Look at Ta Mho Shan an d say that again ........

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by MacG

Look at Ta Mho Shan an d say that again ........

Beautiful yes, efficient no.

[MacG]

I absolutely agree that a modern design is more efficient. Nonetheless, personally I prefer the designs of the '70's - for whatever reason. I still regret the sale of the Standfast 40 bitterly.
What I have now is an Iron Lady without the elegance of the Frans Maas design. Efficient? Very. I can enter places that were impossible with the 40. For the soloist it is an ideal design, today I would have problems handling the Standfast.

In spite of being a steel boat, she is not ugly. So I am reasonably happy with her.

[TeddyDiver]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

If you sail northern Atlantic Europe , you'll quickly learn what a " weather window" is, and why most production sloops handle conditions day in and day out, that you warm weather sailors see once in a lifetime ! A weather window here is 24 hours between fronts !!!.
Dave

Dunno about your other opponents but to me you are a warm water wussie
Anyway looking down from here 70deg north by Barents sea