Modern Production Cruisers at Sea

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by JK n Smitty

I didn't say it was more or less seaworthy. I was pointing out that modern oysters are far closer to Catalina's than the traditional long keel designs.

So maybe you should work on your reading comprehension before you say someone's post is absolute rubbish.

Have you ever actually sailed a boat? Spend any time at anchor? Been out of sight of land? Been in horrible weather at sea?

Step away from your books and computer, and start living the dream... instead of theorizing & day dreaming.

Catalina 445 at 12 ton= Oyster 53 at 25 ton Really??

I stand by my assessment of your original post...

[muskoka]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

Have you ever actually sailed a boat? Spend any time at anchor? Been out of sight of land? Been in horrible weather at sea?

Compelling argument. I'm quite sure he's never sailed a boat out of sight of land. That takes brass balls. Even Nelson came home in a barrel of brandy.

And which anchor - that's contentious.

Originally Posted by Kenomac

Step away from your books and computer, and start living the dream... instead of theorizing.

And again, nothing like a good straw man to rubbish. Your internet opinion is salt encrusted whilst your straw man opponent is some effete blogger.

How about you actually get factual and address things point by point. Anyone can contrive a straw man to knock down. Is that worthy of an Oyster owner?

[boatman61]

Don't care who built it or what its called...
as long as it gets me there
A little Adrenalin's good for the soul

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by muskoka

Compelling argument. I'm quite sure he's never sailed a boat out of sight of land. That takes brass balls..... Anyone can contrive a straw man to knock down. Is that worthy of an Oyster owner?

I'm bored.... Waiting in the Palma, Mallorca shipyard for the shitter to get fixed

[muskoka]

I'm not bored, sitting on my Hatteras. It's Friday night and the wine is chilled and the weather is good. Or is it, "the living is easy and the cotton is high"?

But, I'd personally fix my own shitter. It's just poo....

[sailorboy1]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

I'm bored.... Waiting in the Palma, Mallorca shipyard for the shitter to get fixed

Broken shitter, on an Oyster?

But lets be fair and provide full disclosure Ken. For your comparisons of seaworthy etc you are comparing your personal experience on a 45' Hunter with shallow draft to a 53' Oyster with deep draft. Not a very fair fight to use a shallow draft 45' boat to a 53' deep draft boat.

Of course the Oyster is a nicer boat, that doesn't make all production boats less seaworthy.

Boats come with options and it isn't the builders fault if a boat is less comfortable, sails a little slower, etc if the buyer makes option choices that interfere with it. And the big production builders built lots of models and if someone choses the wrong one for their planned use, that doesn't make the boats bad.

I have never had a problem with the parts of my Hunter that Hunter actually built. All my problems have been the same name brand components used on all boats.

I'm still waiting for Ken to go back to old posts about the keel problem he had with his Hunter and tell everyone how the previous owner kept the boat at a dock where the tide would put the keel on the bottom all the time. I bet that had something to do with the keel/hull later leaking.

[JK n Smitty]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

Have you ever actually sailed a boat? Spend any time at anchor? Been out of sight of land? Been in horrible weather at sea?

Step away from your books and computer, and start living the dream... instead of theorizing & day dreaming.

Catalina 445 at 12 ton= Oyster 53 at 25 ton Really??

I stand by my assessment of your original post...

I am going to let the personal attack BS go. But to establish the baseline of info, I have sailed, I have not crossed oceans but I have been out into unprotected waters in boats ranging from 24 to 44 feet. I have spent many nights at anchor and have been in storms with up to 40 kts of winds but not greater, yet (I am sure we will eventually get caught in more) and waves crashing onto my boat filling the cockpit. I am in the process of stepping "away from your books and computer, and start living the dream...instead of theorizing & day dreaming" and hope to do it at 40 in 2015. But not all of us are part of the 1% and it will never be in an Oyster.

To your reply, I give you several statics of each boat and details of the build quality. You reply with simple gross tonnage, like that is the end all be all answer.

Gross tonnage is relative to all of the other factors and the worst overall measurement to use. Far more private boats have sailed around the world that weigh less than 12 tons than weigh more than 20 tons. If twice the tonnage is spread out over twice the area, it doesn't change the performance of the boat.

The bottom line is no matter how much money you spend on your Oyster you can't change what it is. It is a modern hull design (i.e. broad, flatter bottom, fast, light weight, with good form stability) with a bolt on keel. Not a traditional ocean cruiser (i.e. narrow, slower, heavy weight, with low form stability but great overall stability) with a long full keel. It is what it is; "A" is "A"; a thing is a thing; or what ever other way you want to present the law of identity.

Your boat has far more in common with a Catalina 445 than it does with a Pacific Seacraft, Westsail, Valiants, Baba, etc. The snobby attitude you show towards Catalinas, Benny, Hunters, etc. is just unwarranted in the context of this discussion. Weather you like or wish to accept it, in terms of modern hulls vs traditional hulls you are in the same group with the "production boats".

Originally Posted by Kenomac

I'm bored.... Waiting in the Palma, Mallorca shipyard for the shitter to get fixed

Hmm, that is kind of a statement all on its own. I recall several different threads about older, wealthier cruisers waiting for something to be repaired on their expensive yachts while younger people just continue having fun on their cheap boats.

[savoir]

Originally Posted by thomm225

Peterson 34:

Thanks for the info. A guy on the SA Site had this to say about the boat:

Likely not -- but I'm a shameless IOR whore. Those boats are like the last redhead in the bar: she'll hurt me, I'm sure to regret this later ... but we're leaving together anyhow. Some hormones will not listen to reason.

You gotta love this analogy. It may apply to lots of sailors and their boat choices. Whatever, I've already met the redhead and she almost did destroy me, but it was a fun time!

Therefore, this boat sounds awesome.

Doug Peterson's boats were notorious in the 70s for steerage problems. They bring a whole new meaning to rock n roll. At least those boats help you keep your spreaders well washed. The problems will start in any breeze above 10. the first sign is a big load on the helm while reaching.

Get something by Farr. If all you want to do is go fast then maybe the Santa Cruz 33.
http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listi...ng_id=1542&url=

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by robert sailor

I'm a modern boat guy but you can not race the Vic Maui race out of Victoria Canada if your boat has a spade rudder "unless" you carry a spare emergency rudder. There is a very good reason for this and that is the history of rudder failures and rescues for this historic race. I have personal knowledge of rudder failures on friends boats (modern production cruisers) Yachting World out of Britain recently ran an article on a Bavaria 50 with a rudder that was coming apart and had to be repaired enroute. Turned out it was very poorly constructed and when the Bavaria factory was consulted they simply blamed their subcontractor as they said that they actually didn't make the rudder and had no way of knowing how many similar rudders were out there. Personally I feel able to deal with most emergencies at sea but deep down I never want to deal with a rudder failure, I'd rather lose the stick!

Where in the Notice to Race or Safety Appendix does it say the emergency rudder requirement is limited to boats with spade rudders?

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by JK n Smitty

(...) If twice the tonnage is spread out over twice the area, it doesn't change the performance of the boat.

(...) Not a traditional ocean cruiser (i.e. narrow, slower, heavy weight, with low form stability but great overall stability) with a long full keel.

(...) Your boat has far more in common with a Catalina 445 than it does with a Pacific Seacraft, Westsail, Valiants, Baba, etc.

1) Possibly the more common configuration is when twice the area meets more than proportional (to area) tonnage. Volume is 3-dimmensional while area is 2-dimensional and thus, all other things equal, volume grows in indirect proportion to area.

2) You are talking about a very short tradition. Say from Westsail onwards. Look back and you will see Maori people rowing their light craft across pretty choppy waters from Raiatea to Aotearoa. Look at boats of Slocum and other pioneers of pleasure craft cruising and you will see they were a mixed batch with a relatively low proportion of narrow heavy weight hulls. "Heavy+deep keel" is a relatively modern concept ... (it may actually come from the times of UK / US competed for the auld mug and, as we notice, the idea never really caught 100% on in the US, either). It might be, that in the long history of sailing the "heavy+deep keel" will be sen but like a passing fancy!

3) This depends on which Oyster we are looking at. You may be right with their newer boats but older Oysters were definitely on the heavy side (of their times).

b.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by savoir

Doug Peterson's boats were notorious in the 70s for steerage problems. They bring a whole new meaning to rock n roll. At least those boats help you keep your spreaders well washed. The problems will start in any breeze above 10. the first sign is a big load on the helm while reaching.

Get something by Farr. If all you want to do is go fast then maybe the Santa Cruz 33.
http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listi...g_id=1542&url=

But I wanted that redhead..............

[JK n Smitty]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

1) Possibly the more common configuration is when twice the area meets more than proportional (to area) tonnage. Volume is 3-dimmensional while area is 2-dimensional and thus, all other things equal, volume grows in indirect proportion to area.

Agreed, but the point was that statistically, the Oyster 53 and the Catalina 445 are similar. They have similar D/L, SA/D and L/B ratios and ballast %. I don't have plans of both boats to look at, but from photos and line drawings they have very similar hull shape and form. So gross tonnage is not really a significant variable.

2) You are talking about a very short tradition. Say from Westsail onwards. Look back and you will see Maori people rowing their light craft across pretty choppy waters from Raiatea to Aotearoa. Look at boats of Slocum and other pioneers of pleasure craft cruising and you will see they were a mixed batch with a relatively low proportion of narrow heavy weight hulls. "Heavy+deep keel" is a relatively modern concept ... (it may actually come from the times of UK / US competed for the auld mug and, as we notice, the idea never really caught 100% on in the US, either). It might be, that in the long history of sailing the "heavy+deep keel" will be sen but like a passing fancy!

Could very well be. Early on in this thread the two designs were defined as I had them for the purpose of this discussion. It's likely that the "traditional" design is really only applicable to early fiberglass boats and that the "modern" design is closer in relationship to older wood boats. I don't know enough about wood boats to comment. I will say that when you look at Spray reproductions they are not that impressive in terms of their comparison with "heavy cruisers".

3) This depends on which Oyster we are looking at. You may be right with their newer boats but older Oysters were definitely on the heavy side (of their times).

We are discussing the new Oysters. Specifically the 53 which is a 90's design. Launched in 1999.

[I.Grind]

Originally Posted by Paul Elliott

This was perhaps not the best example to use in defense of glue...

But they glued them back on the second time with MODERN glue, and they stuck just fine. That's probably where all the wonder gunk comes from.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by savoir

Doug Peterson's boats were notorious in the 70s for steerage problems. They bring a whole new meaning to rock n roll. At least those boats help you keep your spreaders well washed. The problems will start in any breeze above 10. the first sign is a big load on the helm while reaching.

Get something by Farr. If all you want to do is go fast then maybe the Santa Cruz 33.
http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listi...g_id=1542&url=

The thing is the Peterson 34 is nearby and the price is right. I'm thinking I may have to decrease the size of the jib some in that situation. In other words, I'd go for a little more balance on the sails to help the rudder out a bit. The good thing is that the boat has tiller steering so I should have a good feel as it loads up.....

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by Don L

Broken shitter, on an Oyster?

I'm still waiting for Ken to go back to old posts about the keel problem he had with his Hunter and tell everyone how the previous owner kept the boat at a dock where the tide would put the keel on the bottom all the time. I bet that had something to do with the keel/hull later leaking.

Donny,

I promised you I'd never bring up the "issue" again... And I've stuck to it. I'm over it. 'Had lot's of fun on our Hunter... 'love your Hunter... it's an awesome boat.

Now be nice. I'll write up a thread at some point about the thin walled bronze couplings used on most boats causing shitter problems.

Back to the topic: I've also been on a comparable sized Hanse 54 recently anchored near our Oyster.... they are not the same. Everything on the Hanse is sized for coastal cruising and dockside entertainment with a displacement 12,000 pounds lighter than the Oyster and with very high freeboard. Everything on the Oyster and other makes such as Najad, HR, Tayana, Discovery, Hylas just to name a few is HEAVY DUTY with storage space galore and hand holds built in throughout. The hull design is also quite different with the Oyster having a deep V hull to cut through the waves. None of that is present on the Hanse or the Catalinas I've seen at the boat shows... they are light duty. Nothing wrong with that, it just depends on what your plans are. Pam and I intend to cross oceans and travel around the world over the next 20 years... safely, just the two of us.

This next statement is not directed towards you Don in any way:

I'm surrounded by billionaire's boats here in Mallorca, so I don't need an education from some computer armchair expert smartass on a 30 foot 30 year old boat, living in his mommy's basement about an Oyster not being the top of the heap... but it's the best boat I could afford at this stage of our lives. Of course there's better boats... but I'm not a billionaire!