Full keel vs fin keel for offshore?

[kmacdonald]

Originally Posted by thomm225

I'm not upset. it's very entertaining.

I raced beach cats for many years and have had my fill of that......sailing at 20-25 knots plus to win THE CUP!.

Bring your bathtub on down here when the wind and waves are up and you will wish you had an old, heavy full keel boat like my Bristol instead of your little Capri 22

The Capri does well in up to about 35 kts with double reefed main and storm jib. I don't sail in anything over that but do have a trysail for it also if caught out. 60 kts on the beam will knock it down bare poled so it has it's limitations. With 8 kt wind it does near hull speed.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by kmacdonald

Don't worry, I wont run you down, at least until I get a sail in the Spencer.

it was really fun at 13.5 knots burying the dolphins. The only issue is it is under sales contract to bignickmontana on here ( renegade trucking on YouTube)
you ever make it out here I would be more than happy to take you bashing in my columbia defender. The north pacific is real fun.

[kmacdonald]

Originally Posted by newhaul

it was really fun at 13.5 knots burying the dolphins. The only issue is it is under sales contract to bignickmontana on here ( renegade trucking on YouTube)
you ever make it out here I would be more than happy to take you bashing in my columbia defender. The north pacific is real fun.

I think I saw that guy on TV. Could have been YouTube.

I guess you're fair game then.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by kmacdonald

I think I saw that guy on TV. Could have been YouTube.

I guess you're fair game then.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...xMDVyxrhOlmuUG
Here is a vid of him showing my Spencer ( its mind in till the final payment.)

[Alberg30Shill]

Originally Posted by Argyle38

One the things that has been mentioned a couple of times is the potential cramped interior of a lot of older full keeled boats. Now the interior design has nothing to do with the keel design but it is a common characteristic of older boats, and full keeled boat are likely to be older, so that's the connection.

But a cramped interior has advantages. For a given size, a boat that has less open interior is going to have more storage and if you are living aboard that storage is like gold.

Example:
A couple of years ago I sailed to the Azores (from East coast US) on a Tartan 4100. It was a fine boat (and fast) with a reasonable amount of storage, but we quickly used up the boats storage capacity. Depending on the leg, we had 3, 4 or 5 guys on board, so it's quite a few people, but the crew were only packing for a few days (or a few weeks in my case) and there were still backpacks stuffed here and there in the cabin.

After that trip, my wife and I packed up our boat for a 3 month trip to Nova Scotia and Maine. Only two people but we were going to be living aboard for the whole three months. Going north and sailing in to late summer, we had to bring warm weather clothes, cold weather clothes, and extra blankets. We brought two bicycles (one folding), a good amount of food, drinks, beer, wine. I always have all my tools on board, as well as tons of spares, extra engine oil, coolant, etc. etc. If I had to guess, we maybe packed the boat 2/3 full.

Also, in rough weather, in a small cabin gives you less air to accelerate though before hitting something hard. A narrow beam can be the difference between a broken arm or not in a knockdown while below.

[Don C L]

OK well that has all been VERY entertaining.

Now, back to some of your original queries Tidjian, first of all, and this is no criticism, you are letting your imagination run the program here instead of your experiences. So, please be aware we can imagine there be sea monsters and hurricanes the moment we leave the harbor but it just doesn't shake out that way. Think of it, you probably drive on the freeway with cars hurtling past you every mile with a combined speed of 140 mph, yet you would calm the passenger who had never been in a car before, right?

Now more specifically to the Columbia 26 MK II. It was designed to be a nice and fast little racer for the weekends, and overnighting on short coastal cruises, and it is/was good for that. They were built pretty strong though by modern standards, but still the design doesn't lend itself well to what you have in mind.
The keel bolts would have to be checked and probably replaced
The companionway is too large, if you get pooped (dumped on) by a wave over the stern, that large cockpit will hold a lot of water and the companionway deck will let all the water into the boat unless some kind of permanent fix is made there. .. Now that I think of it there is a member here (who is that?) who had a Columbia 26 and sailed it around Hawaii and said as I recall it was fine but eventually the bulkheads came loose too. That is not an indictment of the boat necessarily, they have lasted a long time. The other major problem for what you have in mind, as someone mentioned, is that it won't hold much, it has very little room to store heavy things or water below the water line. So even though you could load it up, the weight will be in the wrong place.
In my own case, I had a fairly good knockdown once off Point Conception running, though the spreaders didn't touch the water thank God. I went down a steep breaking wave pretty fast and at the bottom of the wave, the boat, as they are want to do, spun out, called "broaching." As the boat spins it leans to the downhill side and the wave, especially if it is breaking, helps push it over. It was not a surprise, I saw it coming. I did not sink. I did not die. I got a bit wet. I learned a lesson. I should have reefed more, sooner. But since I could see the anchorage I was headed for and I was only a couple miles off, I thought, "Ah, I'll just hang in there, I'm almost there." Mr. Macdonald may be happy to know I'd agree with him, I should not have been there with as much sail up as I had. But humans, and sailors too, make mistakes. It is nice to have a boat that can take care of you when you make a mistake, or you get tired... both of which will happen, but need not be fatal. In the case I described I would have been well served by both having less sail up and a drogue to slow me down so that the boat does not surf down the wave to peel out at the bottom. At that time I had never heard of a drogue.

Oh you asked about a parachute sea anchor to be used to pull the boat in a strong current but they don't work that way. Once the boat gets up to the same speed as the current, the sea anchor would lose its motivation to stay inflated. The parachute needs a good pull on it to keep it inflated and not sinking. It is intended to hold a boat in heavy winds and not just to keep you (sort of) comfortable but to preserve your rudder, because if the boat were allowed to slide backward down a wave, the rudder, or tiller/wheel connections, could suffer greatly since it is on the leading edge and will be forced to slam backward. Not having a rudder is a bad thing. Not the end of the world, but pretty bad as things go.

The Albin Vega is a good little boat, kind of emphasis on "little." It's like a sailing torpedo with a keel (so is mine for that matter!). It has proven itself capable, in the hands of capable sailors. But don't buy one, or anything, that you haven't had a chance to see and sail, or at least know well because you have sailed similar boats.

The thought puzzle you present is a tough one... I like challenges, but with little money and little experience you want to set out next fall, right? Phew. That's a challenge.

I will say somewhere back I think you asked something about this... The Columbia 26 MK1 seems to tick off more of the boxes for affordability, strength, displacement (barely), roominess and it has a well big enough to put a 9.9 longshaft and to keep it somewhat sealed up and the prop tilted up and out of the water while sailing. And I know at least one of those sailed to Tahiti. Another one of those was the boat a local fisherman was in when it dismasted near Catalina island. 3 months later they found him, in fairly good health, fishing and collecting rainwater, drifting in that boat off the coast of Costa Rica if my memory serves me.

If you come down here and get a boat, I'd be happy to go up to Point Conception with you (if my wife lets me) where the weather is close and we can practice various things to help answer your questions. Or we could just head straight out for a hundred miles or so and you can see how that feels too. But wherever you go, you should get that kind of practice, in your boat of choice, to see if the plan is really still your cup of tea before you set out, imo. I don't mean to keep harping on this, but if you come here to practice, the triangle of southern California islands and Point Conception, you will get you a full smorgasborg of experiences... calm, rough, shipping lanes, anchoring, cold water, dead calms, occasional gales if you want one... but sorry, no hurricanes... yet. Certainly there are folks who just go and learn as they go and then blog or vlog about it. I just wouldn't advise anyone to do it that way.... I'd feel way too guilty if things went badly for them.

[JPA Cate]

^^^^

Lovely post, Don. i hope Tidjian listens. TJ, he's right!

A.

[markpierce]

Originally Posted by kmacdonald

Full keel boats went with the dinosaurs. If you really like to sail, get a fin keel performance boat. For most cruisers it's all about the destination and thet spend most of their time at the dock or on the hook. If that's you, then sailing performance doesn't matter much. If you are a sailor then it's ALL about performance and fin keels are the only way to get that, other than some multihulls.

If it is all about the destination, best to travel by automobile, bus, train, or airplane as is most convenient/cost effective. Small-boat oversea travel can't be considered uniformly comfortable unless that's desirable.

[Tidjian]

I'm getting more and more passionate about that Albin Vega 27. I'm really into her design. But seeing how the weather is here it will be a while before I can acquire a new boat. So maybe I'll find others of similarity. I've been looking at the ones posted here and thank you for that.

I would really appreciate that Don. If I make it down that way whether I sail out of Vancouver or drive down I'll definitely look you up. As to what you said I will keep my mind open. Thanks for explaining the Columbia 26 MK II to me. I suppose it makes sense to say there are more suitable boats for long voyages. Also is there a difference between the MK II and the MK1? Because I couldn't even find an MK1 on google.

Also in response to that nice boat up there. I definitely see the value of a full keel boat. Especially in terms of rubbing into things accidently or purposely wanting to run her aground (although I'm not sure how you would get a 6000lb boat back in the water after). It will really just come down to price vs distance vs availability. Something heavier and slower doesn't bother me as safety outweighs speed for me. But as many are pointing out there are a lot of fin keels considered equally as safe. So I'm open to both right now.

When I logically think about it hitting something and breaking your keel off. I imagine if your bolts are in good condition, and not worn down or rotting, you would have to hit something very very hard to break the keel off. I can't see a collision at 6 or 7 knots snapping a keel off. The worst I would foresee would be loosening or causing it to shift the socket creating a spewing leak in the bottom of the boat. Not good considering you probably wouldn't be able to fix it at sea and would need to run a bilge pump. I would think anything capable of snapping your keel clean off or hitting something at a speed fast enough to cause that kind of damage; would likely kick up after causing significant damage to the fibreglass hull. Just speculating as an armchair sailor right now as I've never seen it.

[Tidjian]

https://www.kijiji.ca/v-voilier/lava...ationFlag=true

Looks like an interesting boat and in good shape. For the life if me I can't figure out what it is. All I could make out from him was it's a Bruce Roberts custom design.

It's not on Atoms list but what's the opinion on an Aloha 28? She has a fin ballast but otherwise she is heavy as ****. Also looks like she has good lowest storage and a 33g water storage. Inboard engine with a small cockpit. Also the transom hung rudder looks like she would have more protection from anything hitting her from the front. I can't find any real information as to their build strength or seaworthiness.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by kmacdonald

The Capri does well in up to about 35 kts with double reefed main and storm jib. I don't sail in anything over that but do have a trysail for it also if caught out. 60 kts on the beam will knock it down bare poled so it has it's limitations. With 8 kt wind it does near hull speed.

A Capri may do ok in totally protected waters at 35 knots up your way but down here near the mouth of the Chesapeake in any wind and wave action coming off the Atlantic, it would most probably be swamped.

CAPRI 22 (CATALINA) sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com

The waves are very closely spaced and steep and maybe anywhere from 5'-8' plus. Sometimes it simply looks like a washing machine out there. Nothing but white water

The ocean quickly goes from 1000's of feet deep to 20'-30' feet deep and that creates those conditions

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by Tidjian

I'm getting more and more passionate about that Albin Vega 27.

Those boats have a good reputation but are quite small and very lightly built.

Check the disp/len ratio: Vega 27:
http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=549

This boat was recommended earlier and looks quite stout:

Vancouver 27:
http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=962

[Suijin]

Originally Posted by Tidjian

I'm getting more and more passionate about that Albin Vega 27. I'm really into her design. But seeing how the weather is here it will be a while before I can acquire a new boat. So maybe I'll find others of similarity. I've been looking at the ones posted here and thank you for that.

If you're interested in the Albin Vega I know someone you should talk to, Matt Rutherford. He circumnavigated the Americas (yes, through the Arctic) in a 27 that had been donated for the effort. Incidentally he's now also a broker at David Walters Yacht Sales in Annapolis. He's a nice guy and would be more than happy to talk to you about the boat:

https://reddotontheocean.com

Originally Posted by Tidjian

Also in response to that nice boat up there. I definitely see the value of a full keel boat. Especially in terms of rubbing into things accidently or purposely wanting to run her aground (although I'm not sure how you would get a 6000lb boat back in the water after). It will really just come down to price vs distance vs availability. Something heavier and slower doesn't bother me as safety outweighs speed for me. But as many are pointing out there are a lot of fin keels considered equally as safe. So I'm open to both right now.

When considering buying an older boat you would be best served by being flexible on the specific make and model and ultimately buying the boat that is in the best condition within your budget. If you have a portfolio of say 7 or 8 makes of boats that fit your requirements, focus on finding the best value available on the market. Old boats need refits and equipment which can often equal or exceed the purchase price. If you're fixated on one particular make and model you could easily end up with a poor value simply because there are no good examples on the market, or waiting forever for the right one to turn up.

Relatedly, get on and inspect as many boats as possible. You're not going to learn much of value perusing specifications on the internet when it comes time to actually buying a boat. Call brokers, make appointments, look over the boats, poke around, and over time you'll build some context in your head for what's what in terms of layout, condition, and value. If you start that now in your free time, locally, it will inform your whole search and selection process.

Originally Posted by Tidjian

When I logically think about it hitting something and breaking your keel off. I imagine if your bolts are in good condition, and not worn down or rotting, you would have to hit something very very hard to break the keel off. I can't see a collision at 6 or 7 knots snapping a keel off. The worst I would foresee would be loosening or causing it to shift the socket creating a spewing leak in the bottom of the boat. Not good considering you probably wouldn't be able to fix it at sea and would need to run a bilge pump. I would think anything capable of snapping your keel clean off or hitting something at a speed fast enough to cause that kind of damage; would likely kick up after causing significant damage to the fibreglass hull. Just speculating as an armchair sailor right now as I've never seen it.

The biggest threat in this department is grounding and being stuck, in a sea state that grinds and hammers the boat over and over, on a reef or whatever. That's when people lose boats and more often than not it doesn't matter what kind of keel the boat has.

And back to condition, a full keeler with a poorly maintained rudder post, foot, etc. is going to be far risker on a long voyage than a fin keel boat with a well maintained one. It really is all about condition in the end.

[Pegu Club]

This has been quite the entertaining read, thanks, some good info and opinions here

Can't wait till Kmac starts up with CE ratings.....




Fair winds all,

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by Suijin

If you're interested in the Albin Vega I know someone you should talk to, Matt Rutherford. He circumnavigated the Americas (yes, through the Arctic) in a 27 that had been donated for the effort. Incidentally he's now also a broker at David Walters Yacht Sales in Annapolis. He's a nice guy and would be more than happy to talk to you about the boat:

Matt Rutherford has tons of sailing/cruising experience for his age.

He is unlikely to run a lightly built boat like Vega 27 aground etc while trying to come ashore like some of us that would be new to an unknown entrance

I continue to push newer cruisers/sailors toward the older overbuilt full keel boats as mentioned on the Atom Voyages Site because they can take a beating rather it be running them into a dock/piling or running them aground.

Plus they heave too well and can possibly save a singlehander if he were to get caught in bad weather and was too tired to man the helm

They can also usually handle being over canvased at least long enough for the newbie sailor to get the sails down since their sail to disp ratio is usually quite low