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Old 09-11-2012, 08:53   #61
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Cabability

The lower water temp is definately an issue even if you go into the life raft. We had one Viking dry suit on board (mine) and a couple wetsuits for the northerly crossing. Do not want to think about that scenario.

Up here in Lake Superior it is even more dire! Surface water temps even in July can still be in the 40 F range. Life jackets are just for recovering the bodies. It is always on your mind that carelessness, fire, or a hard to get to failed seacock could put you in. It would be tough to swim 500 yards to shore.

I occasionally jump in 40 degree F water and the shock is impressive. It reminds me of 3 snowmobilers that went off the ice into open water a while back. Two didn't make it. The two that didn't make it each had tried to take their boots off to swim better. The exposure sapped their strength. The guy that made it just went for the edge of the ice and climbed out with his boots on.
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Old 09-11-2012, 08:59   #62
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The simple fact is that most production boats HAVE demonstrated they can circumnavigate.

The fact is most production are now of a quality that is significantly better them needed

Simple features like weight or long keels ate not a factor today in deciding a good boat.

All prudent skippers prepare their boats irrespective of the type of boat.

Look, the major production builders for example in Europe ate located well north of 40N and there vessels are in daily use in very difficult waters.

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Old 09-11-2012, 09:00   #63
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Cabability

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Originally Posted by vtcapo View Post
It never ceases to amaze me how seasoned sailors ignore ALL the possibilities. I am not suggesting that you need the ultimate boat to cross the stream or an ocean. I am only suggesting that if Murphy shows up your boat should be able to handle what ever comes its way. That is on YOU.

Frankly, **** happens ALL the time. If your boat is not up to snuff the only one to blame is yourself and your casual thinking. Experience is of course a factor but years of experience didn’t help those on board that Freedom 40. BTW that 911 call came just off the coast, if I remember correctly off Lantana. No reefs out there and if they were run down there would have been debris.

This was a typical case of an experienced crew meeting up with Murphy and not coming back to talk about. What you should be talking about is how would YOUR boat handle a situation like that i.e., caught in hurricane conditions in the stream. And don’t cope out and tell me you wouldn’t have gotten caught because you watch the weather. This is a “what if”.

RT

In addition it happened "years ago." I wonder how many years ago? Forecasting has improved so much just in the last ten years. Look at the "Frankenstorm" we just had -- forecasters knew for some days that was going to happen. When I was a child, my father had a barometer and a humidity gauge, and would go across the street to the ICW to see if the water was rising or falling, already familiar with the tide charts. That's what he used to forecast if a hurricane was going to hit us, and he was always right. But that was an extremely local prediction. It didn't tell what was going to happen 50 miles away.

I'm just sayin' we shouldn't apply present weather knowledge to old accidents. And in addition, vicious thunderstorms do pop up along the coasts of Florida pretty much unannounced. It doesn't happen every day, but it does happen. Before condemning the skipper in this old incident I would need more information.
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Old 09-11-2012, 09:03   #64
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Cabability

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Originally Posted by vtcapo View Post
Skipmac you are avoiding the question by doing exactly what I suggested not to do, coping to the weather reports.

I said "WHAT IF". Since I am talking about being caught out, how have YOU prepared your vessel for this possible scenario. What steps have you taken aboard your boat to address the HOLES.

For that matter, how would you have handled that storm in your boat... and that's a question for everyone...

Peenie Wallie: Charley's Crab and the death of Chuck Muer

RT

One thing I don't hear mentioned much is the importance of checking the stoutness of hatches and portholes. I know of one boat that sank in rough weather because they passed a sail up through the forward hatch -- and then forgot to close it. Oops! But they also break, and portholes can break in a bad storm as well. Gotta keep the water out.
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Old 09-11-2012, 09:10   #65
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Cabability

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...he doesnt yet realize it is NOT the boat but the SAILOR that is the blue water and makes the boat to be seaworthy---

Getting closer. So clear something up for me. Are you saying the Experienced Sailor makes any boat seaworthy by his mere presents on board? Or with his knowledge he alters his boat to make it more seaworthy?

Hopefully you are referring to the later. If that is the case what have YOU done before hand to prepare YOUR boat in case you get caught out in a situation like the one which claimed all on board that Freedom 40?

RT

Well, don't put words in anyone's mouth. An experienced sailor will *always* do better in trying conditions than an inexperienced one. I'm not an experienced sailor compared to many on this forum, and IRL if I was out sailing with my friend B and we got caught in a bad storm I'd absolutely hand the helm over to him. He would be in charge on my boat.

In a more moderate storm I would ask his advice as I went along but wouldn't turn the helm over unless I had to, because I'd be denying myself a first class sailing experience. It's not the same to watch someone else do it as to make the decisions and do it yourself.

That said, this friend, with decades of hard core sailing experience, could not save my boat if I hadn't paid attention to the rigging and the mast came down, fell in the water and holed the boat. That is NOT an unrealistic "meteor out of the sky thing" -- it does happen. If it was AVOIDABLE and it happened, that's really bad.

You have to look at two things: what does the skipper know (and does he or she realize when they don't know), and is the boat structurally sound.
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Old 09-11-2012, 09:14   #66
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Cabability

Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
The simple fact is that most production boats HAVE demonstrated they can circumnavigate.

The fact is most production are now of a quality that is significantly better them needed

Simple features like weight or long keels ate not a factor today in deciding a good boat.

All prudent skippers prepare their boats irrespective of the type of boat.

Look, the major production builders for example in Europe ate located well north of 40N and there vessels are in daily use in very difficult waters.

Dave
It sure seemed to me like everyone in northern Europe owned a Hallberg Rassy.
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Old 09-11-2012, 11:02   #67
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Cabability

Quote:
Originally Posted by LakeSuperior View Post
The lower water temp is definately an issue even if you go into the life raft. We had one Viking dry suit on board (mine) and a couple wetsuits for the northerly crossing. Do not want to think about that scenario.

Up here in Lake Superior it is even more dire! Surface water temps even in July can still be in the 40 F range. Life jackets are just for recovering the bodies. It is always on your mind that carelessness, fire, or a hard to get to failed seacock could put you in. It would be tough to swim 500 yards to shore.

I occasionally jump in 40 degree F water and the shock is impressive. It reminds me of 3 snowmobilers that went off the ice into open water a while back. Two didn't make it. The two that didn't make it each had tried to take their boots off to swim better. The exposure sapped their strength. The guy that made it just went for the edge of the ice and climbed out with his boots on.
Yes the cold water is a very high risk issue in high latitude sailing. Without some sort of survival suit you may have only minutes to survive and much less than that to remain functional.

My cold water story, when I lived on a lake in north GA we had an extremely warm weekend one January so a couple of my neighbors decided they would go water skiing. They started off the dock so the skier was dry but being high school boys, the one driving the boat thought it would be funny to dunk the guy skiing so whipped him around over the wake and down.

The skier almost drowned because the water was so cold, from the shock of it he was unable to climb the boarding ladder. He was also about a 6'2" 220 lbs and the guy in the boat couldn't lift him. After the shock faded a bit the guy in the water was able to help a little and was half dragged, half climbed back on board. He was pretty scared by it and not too amused.
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Old 09-11-2012, 11:24   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LakeSuperior

It sure seemed to me like everyone in northern Europe owned a Hallberg Rassy.
Beneteau / jeanneau /Bavaria/ Hanse. Then add in Dufour, Gibsea, delphi ,x yachts, etc. all these production boats Utterly dominate the Northern European markets, including Northern Europe the Baltic , Atlantic France ,Ireland and the Uk. Sometimes we get frankenstorms every week end it seems. Even in summer F 8 s are not uncommon . All these builders are above 40 n

HR is a tiny tiny niche builder. Any visit to any Northern European marina will verify that.

What I'm saying is that these boats ate not just warm water charter boats . Sure the insides areas are mass produced etc so what. Lets compare HR and beneteau. Bolted on fin keel and spade rudder,check , yanmar engines, harken, facnor, proful, Selden, Lewmar , check , giot , Lewmar hatches and lights check

Etc etc



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Old 09-11-2012, 11:38   #69
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Cabability

Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
Beneteau / jeanneau /Bavaria/ Hanse. Then add in Dufour, Gibsea, delphi ,x yachts, etc. all these production boats Utterly dominate the Northern European markets, including Northern Europe the Baltic , Atlantic France ,Ireland and the Uk. Sometimes we get frankenstorms every week end it seems. Even in summer F 8 s are not uncommon . All these builders are above 40 n

HR is a tiny tiny niche builder. Any visit to any Northern European marina will verify that.

What I'm saying is that these boats ate not just warm water charter boats . Sure the insides areas are mass produced etc so what. Lets compare HR and beneteau. Bolted on fin keel and spade rudder,check , yanmar engines, harken, facnor, proful, Selden, Lewmar , check , giot , Lewmar hatches and lights check

Etc etc



Dave
Not to start an argument but we were intrigued by a new 40 some foot (one of the makes you list) that hit a reef off Scotland and was in the yard for repair.

The hull didn't look bad but the engineering challenge of trying to put the entire interior tub back in the right place and fastened was daunting. I'm not sure how they finally solved the problem. Not sure I would want to tackle the North Atlantic in one.
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Old 09-11-2012, 11:48   #70
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Cabability

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The ocean is just not that scary.

Well sometimes it can get a little lumpy (and dangerous although the sailboats in this video are all under contol, except the one where the crew were all below stopping a leak) Even the boat going through the surf line was totally in control which takes us back to it's not the boat but the skipper. Seeing that guy hugging the boom it looks like these guys have been out that way before.



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Old 09-11-2012, 11:56   #71
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Cabability

I think, if at all an option, going for a slightly stronger, slightly more expensive boat may make good sense to someone who wants to take on repeated long distance, offshore passages.

HR and Bavaria, Oyster and Delphia do tend to look more and more the same and they may share the same engine, mast, hardware, etc.. manufacturers. But there is still a number of points where they do differ.

Every year I see maybe a dozen of boats sailing in with various degree of problems. Sometimes the type and extension of the problems speak of the manufacturer.

Alas, once one already has a boat then all that can be done is to prepare the boat and oneself for the passage as well as one can.

A poorly prepared boat under a bad skipper is a disaster waiting to happen. Please note that a bad skipper will never know his boat is not adequate or adequately prepared (he is a bad skipper after all), until they sail out and find out the hard way (or not).

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Old 09-11-2012, 13:47   #72
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Internet here in Mexico sucks at the moment so haven't trawled through to see if anyone else posted this link... but here is my mate's blog who just single handed a Catalina 30 from Ecuador to French Poly and is now in Tonga. He's in his 20's and sailed down to Mexico last year from SD. I me him in La Paz. Boat has done him just fine (though I wouldn't have personally set off with my family in one).

Sail Panache | Strutting across the Pacific Ocean

Just my (or his?) 2 centavos.
I think this answers the OP's question. Yes they can.
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Old 09-11-2012, 15:27   #73
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Cabability

Part of the criticism of the old boatbuilding style was that they were caves...the modern styles featuring big picture windows and loungelike interiors. Look at noonsite...latest post is a couple near samoa being rescued because rough seas stove in their hatches. Both were injured in the knockdown.

The man was a 35 year sailor, plenty of experience....perhaps his experience was useful for him to recognise they were in deep doodoo but it seems to have eluded him in choice of boat. The old boat styles were developed from experience....water is powerful, and it's better to live with little windows that minimise the surface area liable to being stove in (and easier to jury rig a repair on), and cosy interiors where if the boat starts to do somersaults you don't feefall across the cavernous lounge. There's always a tradeoff....a dockominium and marina posing platform and fairweathersailer is not going to be good at surviving the sea when it has the temerity to wrinkle up beyond daysail conditions. Conversely, the salty seaboat will be dark and cramped when it's calm and sunny. My personal choice: the fogeyboat where routine storms are a doddle and the bad ones aren't quite so scary. At the mooring I'll live with the close quarters and small windows. If I want to look out I'll unstick my stern from the seat and shove my ugly mug against the porthole. If I want room to lounge about and drink beer and spin yarns with folks, the lovely flush decks are there in all weathers, with demountable awnings. Not trendy, no mass-market appeal, little resale value, but something that fits the crew like a glove and will see them through some rough stuff where I can be confident it was built to take it.
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Old 09-11-2012, 15:35   #74
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Cabability

Before I bought my boat, I watched video's of boats in severe storms, That was my first consideration in buying a boat,
I had plans where I was going to sail my boat, The boat I bought had to be able to cover the distances and places I wanted to go,

The weather down here is extremely bad at times, Weather window or not, **** happens and you can get caught out In the middle of a bad storm, My boat has to be able to handle Murphy,
Dont go out if the weather is looking to deteriate, exceptional advise,
But if your out there, well that a different matter, sink or swim, is not the option here,

You need to keep your boat on the surface at all costs, If the boat is capable, then its up to the sailor to manage what ever is thrown at him, or her,

Six weeks in Fiji to master my boat and its systems, Yep, I am confident in my own capability, So off I go to OZ,
Weather window to Vanuatu, 6 days sailing or there abouts, clear to go, I went,

Weather window to OZ from Vanuatu, 6 days, but its a 12 day trip minimum,

I cant sail for ****, I havent been sailing for 300 years like some on here have been, So I am stupid, ignorant, dumb and all the rest of the crap some spew out,
They have no idea on my previous experience on any thing, land or sea,

They base their comments on what their own experience is, and then try to push that onto others, some can, others cant,
If you cant, dont think that others cant either, So dont put others down that can or are trying to,

I dont have any contact with any one after I have done 15 miles off shore, I am totally on my own,
And thats the way I like it, I dont need any one to hold my hand, I am quite competant to hold my own hand,

The weather for 6 days is perfect, from Vanuatu, after that, I am subject to any thing the ocean can throw up at me, I am sailing blind weather wise,
I have been through cyclones, a few times, I know what they can do, I am not afraid of Cyclones, But I am very aware of their capability to destroy, I am very aware of the power of water,

When your out there in the middle of the Ocean, its up to you, If you have done your home work and your boat is capable, you should be fine, run before it, let it blow itself out,

Pushing your boat in any weather will destroy your gear, and broken gear is not what you need when the weather turns bad, and you caught out in it,

My Gemini is not the first boat I have sunk, I sank my runabout on the boat ramp in Port Phillip Bay when the weather changed to crap, The third following wave filled it to the Gunwhales and it promptly sank, But I did get it back to the ramp safely, A 50 foot yacht was up on the rocks beside the ramp slowly smashing to pieces, and 13 other boats sank that same day in Port Phillip Bay,,
I hooked it up to my car and dragged it out of the water,
Maybe I still cant sail for ****, But my motor boating experience over a 50 year period, does count for some thing,
And how long do you have to be sailing before you can be called experienced, Or even a sailor,

My Gemini sank at anchor while I was asleep, It went from dead calm to on the rocks, in 10 minutes,
**** Happens, Murphys law, One of those things,
If my passenger stayed awake another 10 minutes, It would not have been on the rocks and would not have sunk,
Hindsight, Its such a marvellous thing,
But my Gemini will be repaired and I will still take it where I originally wanted to go, Yes, It is a Blue water Vessel and I am proud of it, Its a very safe vessel,
But this time, I will have two brand new anchors that will hold me in position no matter what,
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Old 09-11-2012, 15:38   #75
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Cabability

Quote:
Originally Posted by micah719 View Post
Part of the criticism of the old boatbuilding style was that they were caves...the modern styles featuring big picture windows and loungelike interiors. Look at noonsite...latest post is a couple near samoa being rescued because rough seas stove in their hatches. Both were injured in the knockdown.

The man was a 35 year sailor, plenty of experience....perhaps his experience was useful for him to recognise they were in deep doodoo but it seems to have eluded him in choice of boat. The old boat styles were developed from experience....water is powerful, and it's better to live with little windows that minimise the surface area liable to being stove in (and easier to jury rig a repair on), and cosy interiors where if the boat starts to do somersaults you don't feefall across the cavernous lounge. There's always a tradeoff....a dockominium and marina posing platform and fairweathersailer is not going to be good at surviving the sea when it has the temerity to wrinkle up beyond daysail conditions. Conversely, the salty seaboat will be dark and cramped when it's calm and sunny. My personal choice: the fogeyboat where routine storms are a doddle and the bad ones aren't quite so scary. At the mooring I'll live with the close quarters and small windows. If I want to look out I'll unstick my stern from the seat and shove my ugly mug against the porthole. If I want room to lounge about and drink beer and spin yarns with folks, the lovely flush decks are there in all weathers, with demountable awnings. Not trendy, no mass-market appeal, little resale value, but something that fits the crew like a glove and will see them through some rough stuff where I can be confident it was built to take it.

My boat has portholes that open. Before I took this boat bluewater I would replace them with fixed. Just as an example.
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