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Old 16-11-2012, 14:18   #316
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

Yes, I agree with the two above statements about comfort with regard to blue water vs coastal cruiser.

The more comfort you want while in weather conditions (beyond ideal) the more of a blue water boat you will wish to have.

Wow....at least we have some kind of agreement on this thread.

James L
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Old 16-11-2012, 14:34   #317
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

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Originally Posted by propellanttech View Post
Yes, I agree with the two above statements about comfort with regard to blue water vs coastal cruiser.

The more comfort you want while in weather conditions (beyond ideal) the more of a blue water boat you will wish to have.

Wow....at least we have some kind of agreement on this thread.

James L
Blue water threads are sort of like anchor threads, or multihull vs mono. fin vs full etc......you are useually opening a can of worms and/or stiring up a hornets nest.
People forget there are lots of different ways of doing things the right way....and just because something is different it isn't necessarily wrong....that said there are an unlimited number of ways to do things wrong. The whole point of this is to give different opinions and take into consideration that some are right some are wrong.....just because two are different doesn't mean one is right or wrong
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Old 16-11-2012, 14:43   #318
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

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Blue water threads are sort of like anchor threads, or multihull vs mono. fin vs full etc......you are useually opening a can of worms and/or stiring up a hornets nest.
I know....that is why I was surprised there was actually some agreement.

This is the one thing about humans which is an absolute. Everyone like different things, so they will take different paths, or make different decisions.

It is what makes life interesting. Just imagine if there were only one boat to choose from. That would make it boring, and it would probably be a trawler.

James L
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Old 16-11-2012, 15:00   #319
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

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Originally Posted by propellanttech View Post
I know....that is why I was surprised there was actually some agreement.

This is the one thing about humans which is an absolute. Everyone like different things, so they will take different paths, or make different decisions.

It is what makes life interesting. Just imagine if there were only one boat to choose from. That would make it boring, and it would probably be a trawler.

James L
It would depend on what marketing decided.....boats, cars and such are alot more uniform than they used to be. My boat was designed in 1936 and is alot more distinctive in appearance and there are features found that are said to be "obsolete" and/or people have never heard of.....I can't think of any "modernizations" that would improve her performance.
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Old 16-11-2012, 15:47   #320
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Lucas

you need to add one:

5 - it has been howling outside and the waves have been breaking over the boat for 48 hours and I'm been below, curled up in a little ball, crying for my mommy, and wishing that this modern production boat would finally break in half because I just want to die, but it just wont and keeps floating along

this is the real world of when people really call for a rescue and abandon their boats, the boat later is found with torn up sails floating along just fine without those stupid people on it that shouldn't have been out in the forecasted weather to start with!
+1

Really.
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Old 16-11-2012, 18:08   #321
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

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Originally Posted by foolishsailor View Post
+1

Really.
I was allways told that when abandoning ship you should step "up" into the life raft. In the real story of the ""Perfect Storm" the sailboat that was abandoned was a WestSail 32 (or 34) and it washed up on a beach in South Carolina, was salvaged and to the best of my knowledge is still sailing today. Whether or not a boat can survive is not the question....whether or not the crew can survive the boat is.
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Old 16-11-2012, 19:01   #322
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

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... Full keelers were built primarily because they evolved from wooden designs, hydrodynamically its a very poor underwater shape with few regodeeming factors. Modern computer designed underwater shapes , coupled with modern materials means they have gone the way of the dodo bird. Dave
I'm glad Cap Capo loves his boat and appears willing to argue ad nauseam but Dave's point carries the day. If your boat just wallows around in a light breeze, you might have a comfortable life raft, but not a sailboat that most would like to sail. Motor sailing isn't sailing.

A thread a couple of years ago discussed how those ultra safety conscious cruisers probably weren't going anywhere: They never be safe enough.
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Old 16-11-2012, 21:18   #323
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

Just to stir the pot a little (like this pot really needs stirring) I was rereading Beth and Evans article about heaving to and ran into this comment. This is from a couple that logged many miles in high latitudes including north of the Arctic Circle and a circumnavigation in the Southern Ocean.

"We have been in breaking waves only twice in our 75,000 nautical miles and both were avoidable."


So if in 75,000 miles of "blue water" sailing including the stormiest parts of the globe this is their experience, does it really make sense to obsess over getting an overbuilt tank for the Bahamas, Caribbean or the Pacific trade winds, aptly called the Coconut Milk Run?

Hope they don't mind my quoting a line from their article and dragging them into this nonsense.

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Old 16-11-2012, 22:02   #324
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

All production boats are not created equal. On the West Coast this year we had two fatal boating accidents where the boats went on the rocks.

The first was a Sydney 38, which went up high and dry in heavy winds and seas on the Farallons. The boat was pulled off essentially intact by a helicopter, but the crew were washed off the boat in the surf and drowned.

The second was Agean, a Hunter 37 which hit the Coronados in light wind and a moderate swell. There were no survivors, and the boat w2as shattered into small pieces.

"The Cabo San Lucas storm of December 1982 is covered fairly completely in the Pardey's book, The Capable Cruiser. They flew in a day or two after the storm to report for various magazines (Cruising World?). An onshore gale with winds reported to be gusting 50-70 knots with huge seas put 27 boats on a sand beach. Five boats were salvaged basically intact, 11 other hulls where recognizable but damaged beyond repair or sunk in the sand. Six large boats were shattered beyond recognition, and 6 disappeared (out to sea?) completely. Joshua was the only steel boat that landed on the beach.

Besides Joshua, the Bristol Channel cutter Vagabundo, the Olson 40 (ULDB) Notorious, an Omega 44 Grace, and Dancing Bear, a Cabot 36 all survived and went sailing. These are all fiberglass production boats."

So which boat would you want to take offshore??
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Old 17-11-2012, 06:44   #325
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

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So which boat would you want to take offshore??
I didn't really understand your post (not fighting just saying).

But I don't feel that a boat's ability to survive being washed up on shore or rocks is a good measure of being a good boat. Boats aren't net to be on the shore and aren't designed as such.
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Old 17-11-2012, 07:37   #326
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Lucas

I didn't really understand your post (not fighting just saying).

But I don't feel that a boat's ability to survive being washed up on shore or rocks is a good measure of being a good boat. Boats aren't net to be on the shore and aren't designed as such.
I'll second that. I see no correlation to being driven ashore and sailing through a storm. In fact, with a lee shore I'd feel more comfortable in don's boat than mine. His will go to weather a hell of a lot faster than mine (that is following in the convention of heavy full keel). Different boats from different times will perform differently given different circumstances.
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Old 17-11-2012, 07:42   #327
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

the 2 boats did not go onto rocks by themselves--they were sailed into rocks. the point is, here, with these 2 examples--KEEP WATCH and dont become complacent or try to sail thru land. it wont work.
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Old 17-11-2012, 08:47   #328
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

I'll agree that boats are not designed to go up on the rocks and its somewhat a matter of luck and time whether they are destroyed. However, surviving a storm at sea is also a matter of luck and exposure time. Given enough time in a storm your boat will be hit by some seriously high breaking waves and the structural integrity of the hull will be tested in a similar manner.

We usually don't get feedback from the sailors whose boats fail this test, but occasionally we do. Read the books about the 1998 Sydney-Hobart race.
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Old 17-11-2012, 09:05   #329
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

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Has anyone on here sailed a Catalina offshore or on extended blue water cruises? Or does anyone know Catalina's capability to sail across oceans? Because I've seen some comments on CF saying they cant
Yes. We have sailed a Catalina 38 from Los Angeles to Samoa, via Mexico. We encountered 50 kt winds and 25 foot seas one night, 45 kts and 20 foot seas for several nights and 30-35 kt winds 11-15 foot seas for 8 days between Bora Bora and American Samoa.

We now sail a Mason 43 and I'm not so sure it is any better than my Catalina 38 at bluewater cruising. The Catalina 38 will sail circles around the Mason to windward. Down wind the motion is more pleasant as the Catalina snap rolled. The biggest problem in the C-38 was keeping the speed down below hull speed in a blow. She also carried only 44 gallons of water, we now carry 200 gallons. The Mason doesn't suffer ride or performance when overloaded and the much lighter Catalina didn't like being overloaded when sailing to windward.
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Old 17-11-2012, 09:25   #330
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Seems we have discovered, or re-discovered, another topic like guns, anchors, multi/mono, etc, that has no real answer. Just the addition of the word "bluewater" to any thread variant to this theme creates the expected tension and conflict.

Bottom line is that on one side of the spectrum is the Bumfuzzle method of waking up one morning, buying a boat boat and sailing RTW or the VTCapo method of intense analysation and planning for the perfect bulletproof traditional vessel that will survive the perfect storm and then finding or building that boat.

I guess IMO the only real answer to this question is who actually ends up going sailing, cause really that's why we are all here isn't it? To go cruising? Or maybe I am not getting it and we are all really here to just talk about it...
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