Bluewater Cruising Capability

[vtcapo]

Originally Posted by K_V_B

Why then are so many new developments from the aerospace industry than still frowned upon when it comes to building boats? Why is it OK to glue aluminium when you are building a plane, but not when building a boat?

I suggest you ask our Moderator whether or not he would have preferred his aluminum boat being glued together or welded?

What do you say boss?

RT

[vtcapo]

Originally Posted by Cruiser2B

I ask you again to please state facts not speculation. Overbuilt by what standard I ask again? You seem to think she is built just right and other boats are built to light....As an engineer I assume you could answer and figure this yourself. Is seems as though you are repeating what you've already heard. What standard are you using to say your boat is overbuilt? You have said it about 1000x's so obvious there is a standard of boat building in which you are comparing your boat to, it just so happens that your boat is overbuilt...not better...Is that right?
BTW none of the boats in my marina sunk this year...all kinds all makes, some cruisers some racers...all still afloat. Please state facts, please. I hate wasting my time but I feel like I need to know.

By TODAY’S STANDARD or haven’t you been paying attention. Just go to sailboatdata.com compare current 37’ production boats to my Slocum and you will find few if any 37 footers with a 32’ DWL having a displacement of 28K LBS.

Regarding the Pearson 52 that was abandoned in route to Bermuda. Remember Ballenxj, she was SO strong and her oil canning SO extreme (result of skimpy hull thickness) the crew preferred to jump in the water then sail her to safe harbor. You want that kind of strength be my quest. Just keep your liferaft inspections up to date.

Wolf knows what he is talking about and I assume he would not venture BLUE WATER in a boat that you can flex the hull with the palm of your hand particularly if it is below the waterline or in the bows. I certainly won’t but there are a good number on this forum that believe this is acceptable. So be it, there are plenty of production boats to choose from. Just remember Murphy is watching.

Don you amaze me with your comment that you have never seen oil canning in a boat up on the hard. I see this routinely in yards in Florida. Some boats if you don’t put the jack stand below a bulkhead they WILL as Wolf points out, immediately oil can. If I was looking to purchase a BLUE WATER boat and saw that, I’d walk away unless stiffening the hull would be an easy fix. But this is not the usual case.

Regarding your discussion Don concerning “Brand X” boats. “Everyone knows” and if they don’t, should know what manufacturers have built crappy boats or should I say what models were of questionable integrity. Because you and others here have thin skins I’ll mention no names. All a Newbie has to do is go to manufacture forums and read their legitimate complaints.

What amazes me more is we finally agree on something, that the 315 is NOT a Blue Water boat. I assume that is what you are saying in your last paragraph.

BTW, LakeSuperior has brought up a valid point that was mentioned before. “…it would be most instructive to look at as many cases as we can where serious failure or a sinking occurred during a passage.”

Those instances where people have come back from the brink and what went wrong with their boats would be an excellent thread shift as well as being most informative to anyone considering Blue Water voyaging….

RT

[foolishsailor]

Originally Posted by vtcapo

I suggest you ask our Moderator whether or not he would have preferred his aluminum boat being glued together or welded?

What do you say boss?

RT

The differences would not relate to issues of strength or durability but to differences in the environments the two objects lived in. One is in the most corrosive environment in the world the other not.

[ArtM]

I'm NOT a mechanical engineer, but to me "overbuilt" is a simple concept - it means built to withstand significantly greater stresses than the application demands.

It does not necessarily mean larger or heavier, it could mean using higher quality materials or better workmanshihp than are strictly required to meet the given requirement.

[Cruiser2B]

Originally Posted by ArtM

I'm NOT a mechanical engineer, but to me "overbuilt" is a simple concept - it means built to withstand significantly greater stresses than the application demands.

It does not necessarily mean larger or heavier, it could mean using higher quality materials or better workmanshihp than are strictly required to meet the given requirement.

thank you, for posting your thoughts on the idea. And thank you for stating that your not an engineer. There are others who claim to be an engineer who do not support their claim or claims with any creditable evidence of "under built" or "Overbuilt" boat building.

I could really care less about the bluewater deal. I have my Alberg 30 and am happy with my choice. Will she be everything to everybody, nope, but she fits me quite well. I just hate how others come on here and bash brands, makes and certain models of boats when they know less than they lead on. That lack of and misleading knowledge will steer someone from an otherwise great boat.....sad.

[Coops]

Totally agree with being anti to the knocking of other people's boats. Easy to knock something that you do not have, or have never had, just quote what you have heard. Same with cars, you often hear someone say that they would not own a Porsche(substitute anything here) or whatever and tell you that they are rubbish when the truth most times is that they could not afford one anyway so it makes them feel better saying that. Not for one minute suggesting this is happening here, but you just never know sometimes.......

PS. I have a 20' because that is what i can afford at the moment, so anything bigger than that is either showing off or plain foolish, plus they are all rubbish. Way to weak they are, stretching fibreglass to that extent.

Coops.

[barnakiel]

EVERY boat is overbuilt:
- shrouds rated (break) at X are designed for working load of x,
- shackles, running rigging,
- spars,
- hull,

are all built with a margin (often say times 4 or 5).

If some designers/boatyards decide the margin should be this or that it still does not change the fact that (all?) basic elements of the boat are overbuilt.

Only skippers are sometimes underbuilt.

b.

[svseachange]

We keep rehashing this argument but we simply do not have enough data. It is hard to quantify the skills of crew of the boat, but we can quantify the boats.

I am tired, bored old database programmer and data-lover so while reading this discussion I created data driven web site to allow us to catalog the sailboats that have attempted ocean crossings.

If you have attempted an ocean crossing, or know of a boat that has, then fill out my survey here:
http://www.bluewatersailingdata.com/surveys/1_form.php

View the results here:
http://www.bluewatersailingdata.com/
Click on any of the pie chart slices for details.

Like Lake Superior sailor, I want to hear about all the boats that have attempted crossings. The information about the boats that failed in their attempts is at least as useful as those that succeeded in their crossing.

I have entered some ARC data as a baseline and will keep building the database from various information sources as I get time. If you have data in a machine readable format then please PM me.

[Stu Jackson]

I've spent the past few days reading this great thread.

IMO most overbuilt boats from days gone by were overbuilt accidently, mostly from ignorance and good intentions - which probably also accounts for most of those builders having long since gone broke .

A little history may be in order here. While not specific to Alberg boats, many boat builders went under in the late 80s when some dumb politician implemented the idea of the stupid boat tax (over $100,000 which was a LOT of $$ back then). Just ask around or do some historical research. Thy didn't "sink" by overbuilding, they got taxed out by that dumb trickle-down economic theory that still doesn't work today.

About the mods needed to a C315:

1. The fixed portlights - while the opening Lewmars may make it, the fixed ones, based on how they are built, simply won't take boarding heavy water.

2. Handholds - When Catalina introduced their new "5" series line, one of the recurring discussions (from Catalina owners, who first saw the new boats at the boat shows) was LACK of handholds down below. I DID read the referred C315 review article, and note that the interior photo shows handholds at the outboard side of the cabin. On our C34, which has a saloon that is about the same as the C315 (a "new" C30 - essentially identical layout down below) although opposite hand, we have handholds right smack dab in the middle of overhead. This makes it extremely easy and safe to move around down below on ALL points of sail and on either tack. On the C315, if you're on port tack, the port side handholds will be too far to your left (going forward) to be able to reach and use if the table is in position, and the starboard ones would be dangerously low to be able to use safely.

3. Interior layout - Many cruising boat books, including Calder's Cruisers Handbook and the "venerable" Desirable and Undesirable Characteristics of Yachts (close, but maybe not the exact title), pay much attention to the layout of the saloon and galley. For example, adequate sea berths (whether lee cloths or a large enough boat to not need them (!) ) are important. One comment in Calder's, for instance, mentioned the use of rounded corners of the saloon cushions in a Pacific Seacraft (either the 34 or 37) that precluded being able to use them as sea berths. Many boats do not have a "wraparound" or a U shaped galley, making it difficult at best to use the galley safely in a seaway. On my boat, the galley is L shaped, and on starboard tack I'd need a safety harness to cook safely, and the stove would be on the low side on port tack which would preclude doing so safely. Just a few limitations that should be taken into account.

Thanks for the lively and interesting, informative discussion.

PS - Did the OP ever return? I was so engrossed in the content, I missed checking the authors.

[Cruiser2B]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

EVERY boat is overbuilt:
- shrouds rated (break) at X are designed for working load of x,
- shackles, running rigging,
- spars,
- hull,

are all built with a margin (often say times 4 or 5).

If some designers/boatyards decide the margin should be this or that it still does not change the fact that (all?) basic elements of the boat are overbuilt.

Only skippers are sometimes underbuilt.

b.

I agree, I was reading storm tactics by Lin and Larry Pardey a while back and they even say they have been lucky a few times. Using knowledge of weather to make a decision and a decision that kept them from being in the middle of a typhoon in the IO(i think). my point is that any boat and any sailor can go to sea and go just about anywhere. if you have a well maintained boat, 999 out of 1000 the sailor will get you to your destination.

[vtcapo]

Originally Posted by Cruiser2B

I agree, I was reading storm tactics by Lin and Larry Pardey a while back and they even say they have been lucky a few times. Using knowledge of weather to make a decision and a decision that kept them from being in the middle of a typhoon in the IO(i think). my point is that any boat and any sailor can go to sea and go just about anywhere. if you have a well maintained boat, 999 out of 1000 the sailor will get you to your destination.

Your point only provides a false sense of security to the Newbie. Those last two sentences are wishful thinking. Your point would have been better qualified if you had added, "with a little luck".

At least the Pardey's acknowledge that.

RT
PS Shanedennis , thanks for acknowledging the need for a thread shift and the database. It was overdue....

[Cruiser2B]

Originally Posted by vtcapo

Your point only provides a false sense of security to the Newbie. Those last two sentences are wishful thinking. Your point would have been better qualified if you had added, "with a little luck".

At least the Pardey's acknowledge that.

RT
PS Shanedennis , thanks for acknowledging the need for a thread shift and the database. It was overdue....

Scratch my last, based on VT's newest well thought out comments....the sailor and his sailing skills don't matter. Go to sea on an overbuilt boat....all will end well, VT assures it! an overbuilt boat is not a false security at all! it is the end all be all of sailing, buy one and go anywhere you like.

[tropicalescape]

Originally Posted by engele

Every "Heavy Displacement" cruiser I can think of has opening ports. The Hans Christian 50' down the dock has them, the forty something foot Westsail next to us at the last marina had them, Swans, Hinkleys, and Morris have them. What boat doesn't have opening ports, displacement aside?

My Douglas 32 has only one opening porthole and it is in the head...all the others are portlights made of some type of plexiglass and are all bolted from the outside..i have never seen a leak around any of them..

[LakeSuperior]

Originally Posted by Cruiser2B

Scratch my last, based on VT's newest well thought out comments....the sailor and his sailing skills don't matter. Go to sea on an overbuilt boat....all will end well, VT assures it! an overbuilt boat is not a false security at all! it is the end all be all of sailing, buy one and go anywhere you like.

I don't think that was the point. The point is ... that if the boat becomes overwhelmed by the elements and suffers a structural failure independently of or in spite of the captains best efforts then even the worlds best sailors are in trouble.

I think we can all agree that there have been incidents where even the best sailors have not come home.

[ArtM]

What causes sailboats to break? This was a subject of an earlier thread. Most of the time, it is not the storm or the grounding or the over-pressing that breaks the boat, it's the degradation.

Sailboat parts degrade - and that is why they are "overbuilt" - they are overbuilt when new so they will continue to perform after they are degraded. Some boats clearly more so than others!

So yes, an overbuilt boat is a safer boat because it is less likely to break, even after many years of degradation barring an exhaustive maintenance program.

And let's be honest, there are plenty of us who won't fix something until it is known to be broken.