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Old 13-06-2016, 05:59   #61
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Re: A cruiser you can race?

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NICE SOG! And I doubt that you were in danger of breaking something, unless you were getting fully airborne off of a lot of waves. But I, of course, wasn't there at the time.

BTW, & this isn't a criticism, but you guys have LOT of stuff onboard. That's over 3t of stuff, when figured by lb/inch of immersion. Which says a Lot for how well the boat handles, if she's that fast when carrying such a large load of gear.


To the OP: If you find a boat that you like, but her keel is a bit deep for your taste. And it's a bolted on lead fin, you can have it bobbed (shortened), & add a bulb to it in order to compensate for the loss in Righting Moment. And with a well designed bulb, you won't lose much, if anything, in terms of upwind performance.
Take a look at some of the work done by Mars Metals on these.
We disagree on this one..nothing much makes up for draft when going to windward, simply put deeper keels allow the boat to sail a higher course. Bulb keels add to the righting moment etc but don't do anything to allow the boat to point higher, unless I'm missing something.
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Old 13-06-2016, 07:02   #62
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Re: A cruiser you can race?

Deeper vs. shallower draft will count mostly in same designs. When you consider old vs. new, you are likely to find newer shallower draft boats outperforming (also upwind) older deeper designs.

Draft comes in many forms (canoe body, foils, etc.) and is not run by itself - one must consider the distribution and interaction with other hull parameters before any conclusion on draft vs. performance can be had.

If you like thinking draft and hull and foils (appendages) you must look up Ramblers underbody in the immediate vicinity of the keel blade ... a sight to behold.

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Old 13-06-2016, 07:27   #63
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Re: A cruiser you can race?

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Originally Posted by robert sailor View Post
We disagree on this one..nothing much makes up for draft when going to windward, simply put deeper keels allow the boat to sail a higher course. Bulb keels add to the righting moment etc but don't do anything to allow the boat to point higher, unless I'm missing something.
There are bulbs which, even when you bob the keel, actually increase your performance as compared to the stock (deep) fin. For instance, Eric Sponberg did one for a Cambria (I think it was a Cambria). And it was semi-elliptical in cross section, with a tapered, Beaver Tail shape, where the bulb extended aft of the keel's end. And had a "Swallow Tail" cutout in the bulb's tail.
All of which, combined to make for a great end plate effect on the keel's foil section, while actually reducing drag as compared to the stock fin. And IIRC, she was slightly faster to weather after the mod'. Even with the shallower keel.

It was one of the better one's I've seen, & was posted on his old website. But isn't, to my knowledge, on his new website, which he created, post retirement. Though said bulb may be findable via a Google Cache search, or perhaps in an old issue of Professional Boatbuilder.
Plus, he’s reachable via his new website as well.

The "trick" is designing a bulb which enhances the foil's lift, while cutting down on the number, & especially the size of the tip vortices (drag).
Also, if you increase the boat's Righting Moment via the bulb (especially if you do so while lightening the keel weight overall), then the boat's ability to go to weather also goes up.

So that even if you lose a couple of degrees of pointing ability due to having a smaller vertical foil section, if you can carry a good bit more sail in the same amount breeze as compared to the old keel. Then it gives you enough of an increase in SOG vs. the stock fin, that your actual VMG is better.
Ergo, you're faster when going to weather, & on any kind of reach.

Plus, if you're moving faster, the effectiveness of a foil goes up geometrically. Even though it may have less surface area to create lift with. So that given the enhanced lift created by the speed gains, you’re again, faster (overall) to weather.
It's basically the same reason why high speed powerboat rudders are so tiny. As, given the higher speeds at which they operate, they don't need much area with which to steer things.
Ditto on the svelte fins on high speed sailboats. As for boats of their size, the keels (or dagger boards) are tiny in terms of surface area, as compared to the foils of more traditional boats their size. Yet they generate Way more lift, due to operating at much higher speeds.

A friend of mine who works at an engineering firm in SoCal, who's work is so pricey that the America's Cup campaigns in San Diego, couldn't afford their services. Filled me in on several designs that did exactly what I'm stating. And he even offered to help me put one together for a 2-Tonner which I owned, that needed some extra righting moment.

PS: These boats have some pretty efficient keel/bulb setups. As the 43' has close to the same PHRF rating as many Class 40's, which are stupid fast. Have a look around on both websites.
Aerodyne 43 | Rodger Martin Design
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Old 13-06-2016, 07:49   #64
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Re: A cruiser you can race?

Jeanneau Sun Liberty 34
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Old 13-06-2016, 08:23   #65
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Re: A cruiser you can race?

CaptThunder--

I have somewhat followed the discussion arising from your Original Post and there have been a number of good suggestions. For what its worth, we have been sailing (and at one point racing) a 1986 era Beneteau First 42 for 15+ years. Our boat, HyLyte, is a shoal draft version of the yacht drawing 6 feet (compared with the 5' limiter you placed on your wish-list) although that has only rarely been a problem even though our cruising ground is the southwest coast of Florida, the Keys and the Bahamas.

In terms of racing, our PHRF base rating is 93 as the yacht is very fast. Often in Club races, and particularly Wednesday night "Beer Can" races, we would start with the fleet but round the course, be back in our slip with sails furled and covered and be sipping beers/cocktails before the majority of the other boats reached the finish line, even with a short handed mixed gender crew. (In one race, on a windward leg, we made a point of sailing a full circle around a competitor's Hunter that had given us--albeit good hearted--grief about how badly he was going to beat us before the start. It didn't do anything for our finish time but gave us all a good laugh at his frustration as we waved passing him to windward, then leeward on the downwind portion of the circle, then to windward again as we passed him again, leaving his main flapping uselessly in our wind shadow.) In big boat races, we did very well, usually in the top 20% of the fleet if not the top 5% or 10%. (We might have done better but I am fairly conservative and avoided some of the more aggressive maneuvers and/or approaches that might have hazarded the boat/crew for the sake of a win.) Frankly, I pretty much quit racing when it got to the point that one nearly had to carry an open copy of the racing rules of sailing at the helm instead of being able to rely on the Corinthian spirit/good sportsmanship of competitors, particularly at marks.

N'any case, as far as cruising, the yacht has all the comforts of home and then some. A review of the boat appears at (click on) Southwinds, August 2010. For more on the cruising of the boat, our sistership, Ocean Angel, has been on an extending cruise of the Bahamas/Eastern Caribbean for the last several years with their experiences/adventures reported at (click on) Sail with Ocean Angel.

While my comments relate to the First 42, they hold for the mid- to late '80's era First 38, First 405, and First 435, all of which can be had for $80 to $125K depending upon locale, condition, etc. In any case, good luck with your search.

FWIW...
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Old 13-06-2016, 13:41   #66
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Re: A cruiser you can race????

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I love that boat and the price is right....but, the draft is too deep at almost 7 feet. Thanks for sending that thou.
According to the seller this is a centerboard model so draft should be 5.5' with the board up and 9'6 board down if sailboatdata is correct.

FIRST 435 (BENETEAU) sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com

You might want to check that out if you like the boat.
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Old 13-06-2016, 18:28   #67
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Re: A cruiser you can race?

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Originally Posted by svHyLyte View Post
CaptThunder--

I have somewhat followed the discussion arising from your Original Post and there have been a number of good suggestions. For what its worth, we have been sailing (and at one point racing) a 1986 era Beneteau First 42 for 15+ years. Our boat, HyLyte, is a shoal draft version of the yacht drawing 6 feet (compared with the 5' limiter you placed on your wish-list) although that has only rarely been a problem even though our cruising ground is the southwest coast of Florida, the Keys and the Bahamas.

In terms of racing, our PHRF base rating is 93 as the yacht is very fast. Often in Club races, and particularly Wednesday night "Beer Can" races, we would start with the fleet but round the course, be back in our slip with sails furled and covered and be sipping beers/cocktails before the majority of the other boats reached the finish line, even with a short handed mixed gender crew. (In one race, on a windward leg, we made a point of sailing a full circle around a competitor's Hunter that had given us--albeit good hearted--grief about how badly he was going to beat us before the start. It didn't do anything for our finish time but gave us all a good laugh at his frustration as we waved passing him to windward, then leeward on the downwind portion of the circle, then to windward again as we passed him again, leaving his main flapping uselessly in our wind shadow.) In big boat races, we did very well, usually in the top 20% of the fleet if not the top 5% or 10%. (We might have done better but I am fairly conservative and avoided some of the more aggressive maneuvers and/or approaches that might have hazarded the boat/crew for the sake of a win.) Frankly, I pretty much quit racing when it got to the point that one nearly had to carry an open copy of the racing rules of sailing at the helm instead of being able to rely on the Corinthian spirit/good sportsmanship of competitors, particularly at marks.

N'any case, as far as cruising, the yacht has all the comforts of home and then some. A review of the boat appears at (click on) Southwinds, August 2010. For more on the cruising of the boat, our sistership, Ocean Angel, has been on an extending cruise of the Bahamas/Eastern Caribbean for the last several years with their experiences/adventures reported at (click on) Sail with Ocean Angel.

While my comments relate to the First 42, they hold for the mid- to late '80's era First 38, First 405, and First 435, all of which can be had for $80 to $125K depending upon locale, condition, etc. In any case, good luck with your search.

FWIW...
Thanks for that info. I have actually been looking at the first boats. I am also considering the Caliber 40 which is made in Clearwater. Do you sail from DIYC? I am in Treasure Island.
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Old 13-06-2016, 19:58   #68
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Re: A cruiser you can race????

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Originally Posted by sailpower View Post
According to the seller this is a centerboard model so draft should be 5.5' with the board up and 9'6 board down if sailboatdata is correct.

FIRST 435 (BENETEAU) sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com

You might want to check that out if you like the boat.
Thanks, I emailed the owner. I had not heard of a C/B bene.
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Old 13-06-2016, 21:34   #69
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Re: A cruiser you can race?

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I hate to throw stones, but that boat was one nightmare after another. In terms of; design, build quality, gear installation, & just common sense.
Sad really, as I used to have a lot of respect for many of the professionals involved in that project, but... Not so much anymore.

At least Paris knew when to throw in the towel.
Paris (Kiwi Spirit) calls it quits - Cruising Anarchy - Sailing Anarchy Forums
Yeah, I read through that CA thread. However, I wouldn't be so quick to dump on LM, as they were working off a Farr design and simply doing their best to fulfill the skipper's demands. LM makes quality boats. When you receive an order for a big-dollar custom yacht, you try to make the customer happy. I'm sure they bent over backwards. And, we are not privy to the private conversations; i.e., the advice, or lack thereof, given to the skipper in regard to his numerous rigging and systems requests. That will surely remain "hush hush", I'd imagine.
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Old 13-06-2016, 22:34   #70
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Re: A cruiser you can race?

Some of the C&Cs are very good sailers and sail well to their ratings. There are a few around with CBs and are fairly well priced. The many Sabers have CB's like the 38 and not only a good looking boat but sails very well. Of course my homer pick is a Tartan 37, the 4' 2" draft opens a lot of anchorages up and with the board down goes up wind like a scalded dog. We race in the summer and cruise the Bahamas in the winter. Be careful getting a boat too big, if you want to do both. Lot of difference in the weights, my main is 37lbs and easily bend on by myself. Boats in the mid 40's the main is closer to 70lbs, pain the the butt to change out and things start costing a lot more.

Another thing nice thing about a good sailing boat is you do sail a lot more and with a smaller boat you sail more often, because it's less of a hassle.
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Old 13-06-2016, 22:42   #71
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Re: A cruiser you can race?

There are still a bunch of older C&C models with a centerboard. They are Canadian built so generally have a deeper draft, but with a centerboard, you can have the benefits of a decent enough draft and point well into the wind when racing. The were built before some of the above mentioned later models so still had a narrower stern; the tradeoff is volume for performance.
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Old 14-06-2016, 00:56   #72
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Re: A cruiser you can race?

[QUOTE=UNCIVILIZED;2143011]NICE SOG! And I doubt that you were in danger of breaking something, unless you were getting fully airborne off of a lot of waves. But I, of course, wasn't there at the time.

BTW, & this isn't a criticism, but you guys have LOT of stuff onboard. That's over 3t of stuff, when figured by lb/inch of immersion. Which says a Lot for how well the boat handles, if she's that fast when carrying such a large load of gear.


Yea we got a lot of stuff on board -- over 600# in the bow with chain - added a 2nd 50gal fuel tank and both tanks were full plus 2 full water tanks - plus a lot of stuff as you say -- we are full time liveaboards and a lot of stuff - this is suppose to be a 2 cabin version but only one with all the stuff we have in the aft cabin - of course the admirals 27 pair of shoes and 3 bags of books that she won't read until she runs out of other sources and that has been 5 years - and of course all my books on cruising grounds from Maine to Colombia - Florida to Trinidad and the entire Med ++ and not always one copy but different authors - and books on keeping the boat running or trying to

If you search on the Jeanneau DS40 and can see it keel it has a huge wing type keel -- she actually points fairly well -- we did a sail from San Blas to Jamaicia at 40-50 deg on the wind for 5 days - she was quick and easy and very stable - -

as for the 8.8k well we were on a long run not a short one and that type of pressure for a long time did not appeal to me -

to the OP - this boat does not like a heel more than 15% or so -- get above that she is like a French Mistress who has not gotten her latest babble and gets a squirrely - we simply reef - have inmast furling - and she comes back a bit and speeds up --

We had a good laugh the other day in Istanbul when the Bosphrous Cup race boats came in - these are 40' give or take boats that race the European circuit and were docked around us and fully crewed by professional racers for the summer -- the stuff they took off those boats and left on the dock was amazing - even took off their radar - you could have started a nice chandlery with what they left on the dock -
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Old 14-06-2016, 01:16   #73
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Re: A cruiser you can race?

[QUOTE=chuckr;2143843]
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We had a good laugh the other day in Istanbul when the Bosphrous Cup race boats came in - these are 40' give or take boats that race the European circuit and were docked around us and fully crewed by professional racers for the summer -- the stuff they took off those boats and left on the dock was amazing - even took off their radar - you could have started a nice chandlery with what they left on the dock -
The above is actually one of the best "Tricks" to keep a cruiser, or a racer, light. You routinely offload EVERYTHING, & then only put back what you truly NEED. Meaning, that for a cruising boat, other than some safety items, if you haven't used X, or Y, in over a year, then you find a new home for it.

So, say twice a year, minimum, you do the offload thing. And on most serious racing boats, you do it for every regatta. Sometimes daily, even for each day's practice.
Which is a LOT of work on say, a Maxi, that has 20-some sails. Each of which weigh as much as a man, or twice that. Ugh!
But the results speak for themselves, & are worth it!!!

I say as much, as owners of both racers & cruisers, are always Amazed at how well their boat sails, just prior to selling it. Once all of the crap is taken off of her.

And it's a good habit to get into... To keep the boat svelte, & looking/handling more like a Mistress, than the old, overweight, Mrs.
Plus, it lets you Really clean & inspect Everything onboard regularly. Meaning both the boat AND her gear/equipment.
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Old 14-06-2016, 01:22   #74
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Re: A cruiser you can race?

A great cruiser racer is a Hake "seaward 46 RK" google the youtube videos
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Old 14-06-2016, 06:01   #75
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Re: A cruiser you can race?

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Thanks for that info. I have actually been looking at the first boats. I am also considering the Caliber 40 which is made in Clearwater. Do you sail from DIYC? I am in Treasure Island.
We're members of, and sail out of, Bradenton Yacht Club, on the Manatee River south of the Bay. We're also members of the Richmond Yacht Club in the San Francisco Bay area (at Pt. Richmond) although there's not much likelihood we'll ever take the yacht back there. (Too much windward work from Panama north and already having made several trips to Hawaii, I'm not much interested in the "circle" route to No. CA. And my--much--better half isn't even remotely interested in that option!)

N'any case, you've been given lots of good options. A re-purposed racer can make a good, fast, cruising boat.

Cheers!
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