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Old 12-05-2016, 18:21   #16
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Re: 1970 Morgan 40 Cruising Ketch

Thanks guys!

Jim
Roger that! I'm almost glad we're dealing with a broker. I don't know I could stand to look the POs in the face!
No, I don't expect to find much of anything and I do plan on going up the mast anyway to get the real numbers. Where we're berthing in Aransas Pass is a bit problematic with a low ICW bridge keeping us from using the proper channel outbound. The bridge is only 48' and I'm pretty sure we run around 53-54' from DWL our I(G) (masthead to cabin top) is 45'. Tide variance is only 1.4', so we have to go the long route which is a bit tight and shallow.
Yeah, the engine and the Vetas thruster sold me! That's about $12k by themselves not including all the rest! the interior looks nice and homey to, not like a clorox bottle. They really did a great job. There's a youtube on her from last year. Lady Catherine II

Don
Thanks man! I know a guy with a beautiful fairly stock 79 Watkins 37 for $18k, if that helps! Just got back from 9 months in the Bahamas and I bet you could squeeze it out of him for 15k!

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Old 12-05-2016, 19:01   #17
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Re: 1970 Morgan 40 Cruising Ketch

Jim
How old is old, when it comes to sails? Would it matter that the sails haven't seen much use? The 73 Bristol 34 sails looked damn near original. No chafing anywhere that I can remember...actually we still have them.
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Old 12-05-2016, 19:52   #18
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Re: 1970 Morgan 40 Cruising Ketch

Sunshine is the real enemy of sails. Well, salt crystals too, but if they are clean and dry and covered I'd guess they'll outlast most of us.
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Old 12-05-2016, 20:23   #19
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Re: 1970 Morgan 40 Cruising Ketch

Dayum! - That's a great deal on a quite pretty boat. You can always buy new sails - it's only money. I got my new fully-battened main from national sail supply and it was a very very good price. It's a great sail too. It was cheaper than a used sail.

AND - since gentlemen never sail to windward, who cares how bagged out the sails are.

That's not much more than I paid for a crappy C-30, and it's 10x the boat. Congrats.
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Old 12-05-2016, 23:05   #20
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Re: 1970 Morgan 40 Cruising Ketch

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Originally Posted by Fishman_Tx View Post
Jim
How old is old, when it comes to sails? Would it matter that the sails haven't seen much use? The 73 Bristol 34 sails looked damn near original. No chafing anywhere that I can remember...actually we still have them.
Well, there are two aspects of sail age: shape age and structural age. With plain jane Dacron sails, the structural age is primarily a function of sun exposure, and a slight dependence on chafe, and that primarily on the stitching. If the sails have been covered well when not in use, and have not been subjected to chafe, either in use or storage, they can last decades without much decay. For most sailors, the sails are in use a rather small fraction of the time, and most sailors don't abuse sails too much by overstressing them.

Shape age is a different matter, that is, how long will the sail retain the shape that is carefully designed into it? This is a lot harder to predict, because even slight abuse can cause permanent stretching. Also, the design of the sail, ie, use of correct weight cloth, the quality of the cloth (and that varies a LOT), and the panel layout (cross cut vs radial cut) all affect the resistance of the sail to changes in shape. Thus, shape age predictions are pretty iffy!

Sails that are structurally sound but somewhat past of their best shape days are commonly found on cruising boats. Windward sailing is where the shape is most important, and lots of sailors avoid such courses. And, of course, it is all a matter of degree. A bagged out sail will still move the boat along. To windward, it will mean not pointing as high or sailing as fast as a better sail would allow, but that is acceptable to many cruisers, especially those with small budgets!

Structural weakness on the other hand is a bad thing, for the sail can simply fall to bits with little warning. This is especially true for chafed or sun damaged stitching... seams can run from leech to luff in a moment, and this, to me, is not acceptble, even for day sailing, let alone distant cruising.

So, that's a longish answer to a simple question, and as usual, the answer is "it depends..."

Hope the survey went well,

Jim
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Old 13-05-2016, 14:51   #21
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Re: 1970 Morgan 40 Cruising Ketch

Well, preliminary word from the survey is all good. A few soft spots on the deck, but we knew that already. No biggy fixing that with "Cherubini method". Said the owners did a good job on the upgrades and the engine only put on any heat at full revs. Probably need to change the impeller. Looking forward to the full write-up. Next week, we'll see her. They took her out so hopefully there's word on the sail condition from the survey.

Jim and Don:
Kinda what I figured. Won't know what we got til we see them.

Jeepbluetj
Thanks! I know another boat almost as good if anyone's looking...
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Old 13-05-2016, 15:12   #22
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Re: 1970 Morgan 40 Cruising Ketch

Sounds good, really happy for you! Looking at the previous post it appears the boat had most of the work done 10 years ago. Was it just sitting all that time? I'd be real curious about the engine cooling system and perhaps corrosion issues and zincs kept up, but you probably know all that already. Might have something living in the water intake through-hull. Sheesh what a nice boat.
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Old 13-05-2016, 15:14   #23
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Re: 1970 Morgan 40 Cruising Ketch

These hulls were available as a sloop , maybe even a yawl . A sloop version several years ago won the bi-annual race from Daytona to Bermuda . In the seventies Chas Morgan was one of the first designers to figure out a way to play the race rating rules with centerboard boats and they were very competitive in their day . We owned a 34 Morgan centreboard and sailed all over the Eastern Carib in the 70s and 80s . Your boat should do ya proud and the price was right !
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Old 13-05-2016, 15:25   #24
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Re: 1970 Morgan 40 Cruising Ketch

Fishman, I don't think the survey will test the sails. However, you can, to some extent. Try and tear it. If it tears, it's either stitching is gone (if the seam un-zips), or if it tears between seams, it's history. There's also a pencil test, where you try to push a #2 pencil through the cloth. Again, if it tears or punctures, it's history. I would wait to test the sails in this way till after it was my boat, or at least get permission from the owner, obviously.

Ann
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Old 13-05-2016, 17:32   #25
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Re: 1970 Morgan 40 Cruising Ketch

Ann T
Yup, sea trial was requested to check everything as well as the dry survey. Hopefully all is well. I know old ones I have for the Bristol you couldn't push a pencil through with a jackhammer. As old as they are, real heavy material. Possibly original 1973.

Don
No I'm not sure how long she's been on the hard, but I'll say at least 2 years, if not more. That's one reason I know the impeller will need changing. No guarantee they ran fresh water flush on the engine. I suspect the POs sailed her until at least 2012, but after that, who knows? Brokers are notoriously ignorant (or obtuse?) about the facts and details.

I know that a 40 ketch is a whole different fish from a Cat 22 or the Bristol 34 for that matter, but I've got to finish what I started. We never got to sail the Bristol 34 much as she went on hard shortly after we got her and had been under an ongoing refit for the last 7 years. She ended up as a pile of broken fiberglass and stripped hardware, may Poseidon Rest Her Soul, thanks to a grave mistake by the assholes at the yard.

I'm still apprenticing with my best friend whose family all sail and / or live aboard. My dad worked crew boats, tugs, and dredges, but never got into sail. He was a power boat man. The Bristol was our first attempt. I figured a project boat was cheap and the best way to learn systems, maintenance, and fiberglass work while doing things over time would keep it affordable.

Time to think different.
I ain't gettin' any younger and retirement is just 3 years away!
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Old 13-05-2016, 19:01   #26
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Re: 1970 Morgan 40 Cruising Ketch

See "God what a mess" for our previous "adventure".

The "Cherubini method" for fixing soft spots. I found this to be quite efficient and better than chopping up the decks.

Restoration, repair and remodeling of a 1974 Hunter 25 sailboat by J Cherubini II (whose father designed it).

JC's secret system for filling deck-core rot JC:


I filled all of the 'rotted'/'questionable'-core spots on my deck with epoxy. It's so rigid you could hold a teenagers' hip-hop dance party on it.

Once I made a mistake and began filling too close after a rainstorm. I don't know what I was thinking; but when I [pumped with the syringe] I saw that the epoxy actually pushed the water up to the surface. I was very surprised-- thought I had wandered into a really fine mess. What I found was that by continuing to inject epoxy, the ugly baby-vomit-looking water/epoxy slime that migrated upwards eventually stopped-- all the water (and not very much had ever got in) was gone and now the epoxy was doing its job, saturating to the bottom of the void and filling towards the top. The result was a deck area as stiff as any of the other places I have filled.

The only drawbacks to my system of 'drilling and filling' is that epoxy weighs more than does foam or balsa. In very large repairs the weight difference could be a problem. In my 40 years of boatbuilding experience I have never found a point at which this is a problem. The sides of a small production sailboat's cabin are just not enough volume to warrant worry about any increase in weight. The average owner's toolbox would probably negate any theoretical savings.

While it is very true that 'Water migrates very far from the point of entry' [mentioned by the original poster], it is also true that epoxy does the same thing, perhaps even better than does water. Penetrating epoxy is made to do this. I have been filling voids successfully with epoxy since I first heard of the stuff in the 1970s and the only significant mess I ever encountered was when the epoxy would not seem to stop sucking in, and more and more got pumped in with the syringe, until I happened to notice an uninstalled drawer sitting in the pilot-berth area with one whole corner full of the stuff. Through the tiny voids between plywood edge-grain and the fiberglass, the epoxy had migrated 10 or 12 feet along the flange of the boat (and fortunately found something to drip into that was more or less replaceable). To this day that part of the flange on that boat is probably the strongest hull-deck joint we've ever had on one of those boats.

I would trust WEST epoxy with any wood-to-wood or wood-to-raw-fiberglass joint with my life-- and, oh, wait-- I do; because my boat has been restored, remodeled and improved based on that ethic.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A friend, Pilot, then asked me:


'Can you describe the process and the materials you would use. Specifically the typical hole size drilled the distance between holes and the number of holes for a given area. I've read other articles for epoxy injection but would like a builders take on this process.


'My boat was surveyed 3 years ago and an area around the windlass was found to have an elevated moisture level. Rather than pull the windlass and start replacing plywood core and all that's involved in that, injecting may be the solution that stems the moisture migration and solidifies the deck.


'My own personal thoughts on wet core and soft decks is, it's a distraction, and after 37 years of sailing on many different boats some that I've owned I have never seen a catastrophic failure based on moisture or soft decks.'


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So I told him (writing a veritable book into the process!):


If you know there is water present you can drill a hole-- only through the fiberglass layer(s)-- from one side or the other and then apply a vacuum hose to suck it out. This works surprisingly well-- it's the first step I recommend in fixing rotted outboard-skiff transoms. They all rot (motorboaters don't seem to care for their boats like we do ours); and this is the best way to save them. (I am doing my motor bracket's backing board the same way.) You then drill a few smaller holes, sized to fit the syringe, maybe about 3/16" or 1/4", into the top of the transom and pump in the stuff.

I used to thin the epoxy with acetone (not what Gougeon Brothers recommend; though when I told of them of this they said 'Who are we to argue with the Cherubinis about treating wood?" ) But you really do not need to thin it; as it's only doing its job by penetrating the way it does.

You might go cautiously at first, with just a little (3-5 pumps' worth?)-- it will migrate down. When it comes out the hole you drilled for the water, at the bottom, you know it's done what it should (and you know the transom was toast). Next batch, tape over the hole and after it's kicked off, go for broke and really pump it in.

For a deck, you do basically the same thing. You might drill a hole into the underside for your vacuum hose. Tape it securely to make an 'airtight' seal-- I have done this adequately enough with duct tape-- and run it till the vacuum cleaner's motor labors. For Diana I knew the deck to be already dried-out (but for a mistake involving a recent rain, as I said). Be sure to plug up or tape over any openings in the underside-- for the epoxy will definitely find them. You might station a partner below to watch for drips! --and be very wary of when you are pumping in tons of epoxy and apparently making no progress! Spots to watch are along the flange/toerail seam and anywhere silcone (or something worse) was used to bed down through-bolted deck hardware.

Topside, you drill a few holes to begin (you can always drill more if you think you have to). The best tactic is to choose a spot, maybe a few square feet and outboard (low) on the deck, drill pilot holes-- into the core only (mark the bitt with tape if you're worried, to be sure)-- near the highest border of the spot, and fill till you see the epoxy is no longer soaking down in your pilot holes. Don't make the mistake I've made too many times and go silly drilling too many holes-- when the epoxy makes it down to the lower holes you get a dribbling mess all over.

I generally make the holes about 4 inches apart; but it depends on the size of the area you are working with and how serious the rot is inside the core. In theory even rotted core is still 'there'; and epoxy will bond very well with wood or foam dust. As I said before, it is heavier than core material; but as I said too it's never been a terrible concern in the proportions we're talking about. For odd isolated areas it is a very solid, reliable, permanent fix. And if you do not get it all, the parts you do get remain strong and make a good base or boundary for you to fill other places.

If you choose to drill only in places where there is nonskid, you have only to fair over the holes and repaint the nonskid patches. For my deck, which was pretty bad, I resigned myself to repainting the whole deck (with Perfection) and I was redesigning the pattern of the nonskid patches anyway. The little indentations left when the epoxy is done flowing in can be faired with Marine-Tex or epoxy with silica gel, either of which will be rugged enough to not fall out in future and will be able to take paint (after the usual proper prep). Gelcoat, being polyester-based, will not stick well to epoxy (though the reverse is true). So in using epoxy you've pretty much given over the hope of refairing the affected area in polyester- (or vinylester-) based products.

This system should also be used any time you have to mount or re-mount hardware to a cored deck. Drill a pilot hole-- only through the fiberglass to the core-- for each mounting screw and fill it. Do the same in the area under the bit of hardware, like a winch and especially anything in compression or tension, like a padeye or halyard-lead block. When it's cured, drill through the solid-epoxy core you've just filled and bed down the part with 5200-- which will keep out water, hold like crazy especially in shear or tension, and provide needed flexibility. In many cases you will need only fair-sized fender washers with the under-deck locknuts because the epoxy block you just made can serve as an adequate backing plate, especially for anything in shear, like cleats and
halyard stoppers.

I had doubts about the integrity of my hull after I rebedded the keel and so drilled a few exploratory holes into the bottom strata, between the keel bolts, to probe them with epoxy. This was supposed to be only solid fiberglass; and it was. No hole took more than a fraction of the syringe's worth. It was-- and is-- solid.

For Diana I had made a new, short little bulkhead at the back end of the cabin sole on which I stood the ladder/cooler shelf structure. I used 'high-quality' 3/4" MDO for it. Within too short a time this board was rotten from water behind it (from the cockpit-seat locker leaks), even though it had been well saturated (so I thought) before I installed it. (I blame it on using Dave's MAS and not my own WEST epoxy. MAS just does not penetrate as well; period.) Removing the bulkhead was out of the question; and it could not stay like it was. I drilled pilot holes down into the top edge of the plywood, straight into the depths of the laminations, just like I would have done for a plywood motorboat transom, and poured in the epoxy. It took three or four tries and made an awful mess (the stuff ran straight through the spoiled core and gushed out the bottom edge, finding gaps in the 5200 and dribbling into the bilge, where it glued down a stray PVC fitting that I still haven't ground completely away) but I sorted it and now it's solid.

I think this is a good solution for your [Pilot's] windlass mounting bolts. Given enough epoxy in the surrounding core, it will take the very severe shock and shear loads very well. Once epoxy has found something to latch onto-- the rough inner surface of the fiberglass deck, the rotten core, the remnants of any plywood-- it will stay in place and provide a very sturdy inner stratum through which you can drill even big bolt holes. And it takes 5200 very well, adds stiffness, and displaces all gaps that might otherwise find condensation or stray moisture. The one thing it does not do well is flex-- but for a windlass mount you had better not have much flex (let the nylon rode take the shock loads!) and a rigid deck is always stronger and thus more secure underfoot than one that moves and flexes to the point of fatiguing the glass fibers within and weirds you out when you step on something you'd prefer to feel solid.

Epoxy and wood = perfect together.
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Old 13-05-2016, 19:37   #27
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Re: 1970 Morgan 40 Cruising Ketch

I may have missed it, but are the decks of the Morgan cored with plywood? My boat is a bit older and has a plywood core. I think the only major challenge you face with that boat is learning how to maneuver it in close quarters.
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Old 13-05-2016, 20:03   #28
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Re: 1970 Morgan 40 Cruising Ketch

Plywood
I hope so! I'm not sure about this model, but we know they used it up to 69. Not sure if this 70 is balsa or ply...

Close quarters
I still have a lot to learn across the board! LOL! But yep, that full keel is a big change from the Bristols modified keel or the Cats iron fin.
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Old 18-05-2016, 16:31   #29
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Re: 1970 Morgan 40 Cruising Ketch

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Originally Posted by Fishman_Tx View Post
Plywood
I hope so! I'm not sure about this model, but we know they used it up to 69. Not sure if this 70 is balsa or ply...

Close quarters
I still have a lot to learn across the board! LOL! But yep, that full keel is a big change from the Bristols modified keel or the Cats iron fin.
Forgot to mention, if sails seem in very bad shape or you want to add a couple without breaking the bank, I have had good luck with a hardly used mainsail from Bacon Sails in MD, and I have gotten a couple of used sails from Minney's in Costa Mesa. There are some other places too, but you might check those out.
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Old 24-05-2016, 13:10   #30
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Re: 1970 Morgan 40 Cruising Ketch

Quick update:
1970 Morgan Cruising Ketch - Lady Catherine II

It's ours! She needs a bottom job and topsides paint. Some gel-coat stress cracks showing through previous paint job and the ablative is coming off in chunks. Somebody DIDN'T prime first! No biggie, gonna do it right this time.

Soft spots were very small and only 3; 2 on port and starboard side decks and one near the windlass. None greater than about 10 inches. No biggie. All else is golden! Getting quotes from the yard here for the work so that next she goes in the water she is 100% ready for the Islands, Mon!
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