10kn ! Can this Be True ?!

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by boatman61

True... but then I remember... its either mine or someone else long term home... not a stripped down racer..
I'm happy wallowing along... if I've a choice....

Well, as it happens, the last two boats in question here have been our long-term live-aboard cruising homes ( Palmer Johnson Standfast 36 and our current Jon Sayer designed 46 footer). In the case of the aforementioned round-up, which was on the PJ (an old IOR one-tonner, with all its well known shape issues), the round-up may well have been expedited by excessive stuff and weight on board!

Cheers,

Jim

[bob perry]

61:
Stuck up here, hard at work in the ever raining PNW I'd be pleased as punch to go wallowing with you anytime. I can wallow with the best of them.
" The jib is fine."

Sav:
Sure, come on up the mooring is vacant right now. Let me know when you are coming and I'll cook up one of my hearty specaties.

[boatman61]

Thats beautiful... she's going like $*#t of a Shovel......

[Bash]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

I can't speak for long keel boats, but all of the fin keel/skeg rudder boats that I've owned have been easily controlled while at speed, including surfing at well over hull speed.

Different boats have different stability patterns on a plane. The best I ever experienced was a J 105, which actually seemed more stable up on a plane. Worst was an Express 37, which would overpower its own rudder and tended to want to broach capriciously. Most fun was an Olson 30, which on a good day could plane on just about every wave, provided you kept the crew weight aft and pumped the main at just the right moment.

My current boat won't even think about planing in anything less than 15' seas, and that's just fine with me. The few times we've seen her take off down a wave, we've had to laugh at how pretentious she is.

On the other hand, all she needs to hit ten knots in flat seas on a beam reach is a clean bottom. Some days I don't even need the gennaker to hit double digits.

[bob perry]

My Tasar dinghy (15' LOA) was just a peach on a plane. It belonged there. It made you feel like you were the King of the World. It got up on a plane effortlessly and just sat there screaming along. The transition to a plane was invisible. All of a sudden I wuld look at my wife and say "Hey we are screaming along". She'd usually respond with" Fine. Can I drive?"

Boats all have very individual personalities. If I go out of this world leaving one message ( and don't get excited I am still very healthy it would be this. Do not generalize about boats. And love them all for what they can do.

[SunnyJ]

Later Hull.. lines appear similar to Redwing 30 yes/no? Would be way-kewl for BP to comment on reason for design changes.

Early Hull


Hinterhoeller28


Later Hull



HR-28'

[otherthan]

the top photo is like my boat and in my opinion for having seen both models in person...I say the later model HR-28 has too much freeboard...in this regard the redwing looks more like the older H28...when viewed side by side the only significan diference was a more tapered tail section of the redwing...in fact I was surprised to see less storage on the redwing.

[Saline]

I know this is an old thread, but, I am looking at an hr28 and am wondering as well and none of the comments really addressed some thoughts...

The early HR28s did not have as short a waterline at speed as the later version, but the sailboatdata.com #'s don't really reflect this.

The early boats are shaped just like the Sharks, which are known for their controllable surfing abilities despite being built like tanks. The early HR28's have a slightly lower SA/D, a longer/unbulbed keel, and a spade rudder instead of one that is transom-hung when compared with the Sharks, but similar length:width for easy pushing up to hull speed and the very long flat run aft.

Does anybody know if these boats specifically can surf in moderate conditions?
I don't think it will make or break the purchade decision based on speed potential (I know they are generally slower than more modern/powerful boats) but it would be nice to know if the transition to semi-planing comes without the terror described in the above posts.

Thnx

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by otherthan

was reading about someone racing a hinterhoeller 28, he claims to reaching 10kn or more...this boats hull speed is 6-7kn.

I don't know much about sailboats how is this possible?

I've hit 7.7 knots with my Bristol 27 (theoretical hull speed 5.97 knots ) in normal Chesapeake Bay current with 15 knots of wind.

With a stronger wind and a more extreme current, I'm thinking it would have been closer to 8.5 knots.

So if he was sailing his Hr-28 in extreme wind and very favorable and strong current he may have been able to hit that 10 knots. Plus he has more waterline that I do.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by bob perry

Jim:
With the right crew on the right boat I'm happy to push it to the limit.
But in my car I drive like an old,,,,person.

Back in the 70's I designed a two tonner called HEATHER. It won everything in the PNW. In a blow we could bury the bow and take green water back to the mast. It was an alarming site. But at the wheel the boat was totally responsive and you just drove it under the chute to keep from wiping out. But that was a 42'er and the loads on the boat to get it from 10 to 11 knots increased violently. It was scary, I guess, but we were so young we hadn't figured out yet that life itself was scary. We looked for scary. We weren't paying the bills. "Oops, there goes the 1.5".

Ah Yes, Heather at 10 knots! I remember it well, (but I loved it better at 5 knots). That narrow stern allowed it to turn upwind quite nicely at 10 knots, almost automatically, one might say.

I used to be a power boat guy who thought 50kts was the minimum acceptable speed for a boat. If anyone had told me that 10kts would exciting I'd have just laughed, "You've got to be kidding."

Then I went 10 knots on a San Juan 30. Uh, yeah, that's exciting.

We broached once at Pitch on Assault with my ex wife on board. She thought it was exciting, she wanted to know if we could do that every time.

Broached many times since then, but never on my current boat. Rounded up a few times, but never totally broached, even with a 1.5 kite and 25+ knots of breeze. Lucky I guess, (or skillful steering, LOL).

I'd love to have a faster boat which can plane easily and under control, but I don't.

So to the query, can a h28 go 10 knots? Maybe but I don't think it would be fun.

And to the guy who thinks that frequent rounds ups are normal and should be considered fun. Whoa, not to me. It's scary and you never know how its going to turn out. Imagine being on a bicycle, chained behind a railway train you cannot just let go of the train.

[wingssail]

The thing is, when you go 10kts in a under 30ft sailboat, unless it is a planning design, you have to be getting a lot of power from the sails to overcome the resistance of the waterline limitations.

In these boats (displacement not planning designs) then if the boat rolls a bit the center of all that power begins to be applied at some distance laterally from the center of resistance (the hull). What I mean is that the sails are no longer over the boat. A lot of turning force is then applied.

So you need a very powerful rudder with a lot of leverage to overcome that turning force. Mostly that means a detached rudder some distance back from the keel to give as much leverage as possible. Up to a limit, fin keel/spade rudder boats can handle quite a bit of power, but once that rudder stalls out ...then wipe out results, inevitably.

Very few full keel boats have that type of effective rudders. Add to it long overhangs (which means shorter waterlines and lower hull speeds) but the h28 will at least have a chance at remaining under control and going 10kts without a wipe out. Keeping the center of effort low (avoiding spinnakers, for example) makes it easier to achieve in such a boat. Doing it in big waves where the surfing action increases the achievable hull speeds also helps a lot, and this is when most really high speeds are achieved in displacement hulls.

[Don C L]

I'd be willing to bet I hit 10 kts briefly, now and then, in my old Columbia 24 one time off Point Conception.... steep waves and too much sail up for the wind. It was kinda fun as long as I didn't think of possible consequences... and then there were the two broaches... probably shouldn't admit that part...

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by wingssail

Ah Yes, Heather at 10 knots! I remember it well, (but I loved it better at 5 knots). That narrow stern allowed it to turn upwind quite nicely at 10 knots, almost automatically, one might say.

Did I say that we broke the rudder on that boat on one windy Swiftsure race; 71 miles on a downwind run with a building breeze. It just didn't feel right, we kept broaching when we shouldn't have. Boats around us steered well clear, not knowing which way we were going to swerve next. Well, we finished, not in the money that year, and while motoring into the harbor half of the rudder just floated up and drifted away. We decided we did pretty good with half a rudder.

Got the boat back to Des Moines on Monday and Miller Marine made us a new one lickety split, which we got on the boat in time for the next Thursday night race (without hauling the boat).

Yeah, I've done a few broaches.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by otherthan

was reading about someone racing a hinterhoeller 28, he claims to reaching 10kn or more...this boats hull speed is 6-7kn.

I dont know much about sailboats how is this possible?

SOG with a 4 knot current on a full sail beam reach

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by otherthan

was reading about someone racing a hinterhoeller 28, he claims to reaching 10kn or more...this boats hull speed is 6-7kn.

I dont know much about sailboats how is this possible?

It's possible. You might have to be Stan Honey