Rudder Failures

[sailorboy1]

Originally Posted by smackdaddy

Actually, I think you've missed the point of the thread. What we're seeing is that rudder failures really aren't as common as they are typically made out to be in forums.

So, yeah, it's much more fun to talk about the pros and cons of sailboats...and finally agree that the bluewater vs. production boat debate is finally dead.

Nothing fails as much as it does on a forum. Just last week 921 Hunters and 1011 Bene's sunk when the wind hit 8 knots. Meanwhile 2034 1970s 27 foot boats survived a Pacific typhoon and the people on them didn't even spill their drinks.


I just made that up because I lost count and figured it would get as close to agreement as possible.

[minaret]

Originally Posted by neilpride

Swans are production boats, Amels to, Najads, Oysters , beneteaus, long list, bluewater boats? whats is that? what i do is recognize the bad apples from the good ones...

+1! 99.99% of boats on the water are "production" boats. It's only a fraction of a % that are full custom builds, and they are no more likely to be problem free than a factory built boat (quite the opposite IME). The question is, what sort of production? By what methods, and with what materials? If more people asked that sort of question, maybe the era of hull linered throwaway boats would end. Or, maybe that really is what people desire, a boat that's good for five or ten years and then it costs more to fix than buying a new one. But that sort of throwaway society thinking disgusts me. Maybe when they've perfected fiberglass recycling methods I'll feel a bit better about it, but I doubt it...

[minaret]

Originally Posted by smackdaddy

Though you know WORLDS more than I about the practicalities of these materials, I've actually presented the stated facts about Plexus (from multiple sources) that contradicts the "proper glassing is better" mantra we always hear from the "dusty guys". Is that all BS?

I'm sorry, but I don't buy your "dustiest guy in the yard" argument. He may have a hell of a lot of practical experience and know-how - but he's no designer or engineer. So the BS can run both ways.

As I said earlier in this thread, it takes good design, engineering and building to make a viable product.

Place your respect where you like, but I can't tell you how many chemical engineers and NA's I've made shut up when they come out to the yard. Including yer pall Bob, who's office was very nearby for years. Building on paper is just not the same thing as doing it in real life. These guys hate it when you incontrovertibly explain why it can't be done like they drew it. And I know a number of "dusty guys" who, like me, also attended courses in naval architecture and chemical engineering. Not to mention attending IBEX yearly and the like...

[Polux]

Originally Posted by minaret

...
I love how the guys in this thread go on and on about advances in boatbuilding techniques and materials creating a better product, without actually naming any new methods or materials. They've been totally fooled by the glossy brochures and web pages......

Okay, relatively new methods that are used more and more in production boats given better boats: Infusion techiques, SRIMP techniques. Better resins: Vynilesters and epoxy (did you notice that 30 years ago even some pretty new boats had blisters and that know they are very rare in recent production boats?). The extended use of cored hull (that make sailboats stiffer and lighter) and new materials for cores: Divinycell, Airex, Core cell, the use of carbon to give more resistance to some structural boat parts.

Of course you will find that all those new materials and techniques will only contribute for more fragile and worse sailboats

[robert sailor]

Oh Jeeez I thought this thread was going to die after we all agreed that when you can get a row boat across an ocean and the only qualifier for a blue water boat was crossing an ocean and some how keeping the water on the outside of the hull but now we are going back to where we started.
Smacky and Polux are fans of the less costly liner boats and others here prefer the stick built boats. So its kinda like a religious debate, we just hear repeats with a different angle. Smacky thinks today's affordable production boats are good enough and get the job done in most cases and he is right. Neil and Minaret prefer the glassed in bulkheads and stringers type of construction because it is a better way to build boats in the long run, they are right. The difference is money, it costs more to buy higher quality but if your like Smacky and you are happy with good enough then buy good enough. If you want to spend more money and buy a higher quality build then stick with Neil and Minaret. There whats left?

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by robert sailor

Oh Jeeez I thought this thread was going to die after we all agreed that when you can get a row boat across an ocean and the only qualifier for a blue water boat was crossing an ocean and some how keeping the water on the outside of the hull but now we are going back to where we started.
Smacky and Polux are fans of the less costly liner boats and others here prefer the stick built boats. So its kinda like a religious debate, we just hear repeats with a different angle. Smacky thinks today's affordable production boats are good enough and get the job done in most cases and he is right. Neil and Minaret prefer the glassed in bulkheads and stringers type of construction because it is a better way to build boats in the long run, they are right. The difference is money, it costs more to buy higher quality but if your like Smacky and you are happy with good enough then buy good enough. If you want to spend more money and buy a higher quality build then stick with Neil and Minaret. There whats left?

An excellent summary!!

Now maybe we can all just have a beer?

[robert sailor]

Originally Posted by Polux

Okay, relatively new methods that are used more and more in production boats given better boats: Infusion techiques, SRIMP techniques. Better resins: Vynilesters and epoxy (did you notice that 30 years ago even some pretty new boats had blisters and that know they are very rare in recent production boats?). The extended use of cored hull (that make sailboats stiffer and lighter) and new materials for cores: Divinycell, Airex, Core cell, the use of carbon to give more resistance to some structural boat parts.

Of course you will find that all those new materials and techniques will only contribute for more fragile and worse sailboats

Come on my friend, yes production boats do use these methods but the cheaper ones do not other than the first coat of resin that isn't polyester and then its balsa cored decks thin polyester hulls, liners and plexus glue, thats about it. Cored hulls and the coring you mention have been around for a long time and hardly qualify as high tech although none of the lower priced builders use them. Carbon in a Hunter or Bendi toy, are you serious???

[neilpride]

Originally Posted by Polux

Okay, relatively new methods that are used more and more in production boats given better boats: Infusion techiques, SRIMP techniques. Better resins: Vynilesters and epoxy (did you notice that 30 years ago even some pretty new boats had blisters and that know they are very rare in recent production boats?). The extended use of cored hull (that make sailboats stiffer and lighter) and new materials for cores: Divinycell, Airex, Core cell, the use of carbon to give more resistance to some structural boat parts.

Of course you will find that all those new materials and techniques will only contribute for more fragile and worse sailboats

Regarding blisters , take a look at Fountain Blisterjot pls, with all the infusión Vacumm stuff, blisters even above the waterline, and they are vinilester coated for osmosis protection.

And regarding cores, core hull exist since long long time ago, balsa, and still used today, i agree with you that new foam cores are way much better than balsa and produce a lighter and stiff panel , overall all this materials you mention are really good in the right hands, rarely we see Carbon in the low spectrum of the production boat list, epoxy to, Polyester is widely used with a final layer of vinil for osmotic protection thats it, the 80% use it, Gelcoat is still the favorite for cosmetic reasons and to protect the FG , gelcoat is used since the invention of the Fg...

Talking about blisters with Minaret? Pólux? i think you are sailing in murky waters Lol!!! Just kidding!!!

[smackdaddy]

Originally Posted by minaret

Place your respect where you like, but I can't tell you how many chemical engineers and NA's I've made shut up when they come out to the yard. Including yer pall Bob, who's office was very nearby for years. Building on paper is just not the same thing as doing it in real life. These guys hate it when you incontrovertibly explain why it can't be done like they drew it. And I know a number of "dusty guys" who, like me, also attended courses in naval architecture and chemical engineering.

Well, since Bob is no longer able to post here, you probably should be careful talking about him. Always much better to say things like that man-to-man.

In virtually all posts I've seen from Bob regarding design vs. building, he readily admits that he's not a builder. He's a designer. A very, very good one...obviously.

It's funny though that you feel the need to mention attending courses in naval architecture and chemical engineering. Are you a naval architect or chemical engineer? Why do you feel the need to bring that into the discussion if you're not? To establish your viewpoint as superior to designers like Bob Perry?

I think everyone knows that designs on paper are not always what is built in the field. Sometimes that's good (when a detail is improved) - sometimes that's bad (when corners are cut). That's why I said collaboration is always important.

Sometimes those "dusty guys" in the yard who seem know everything can leave this kind of mess after you've paid them quite handsomely for their professionalism:

[neilpride]

Originally Posted by robert sailor

Oh Jeeez I thought this thread was going to die after we all agreed that when you can get a row boat across an ocean and the only qualifier for a blue water boat was crossing an ocean and some how keeping the water on the outside of the hull but now we are going back to where we started.
Smacky and Polux are fans of the less costly liner boats and others here prefer the stick built boats. So its kinda like a religious debate, we just hear repeats with a different angle. Smacky thinks today's affordable production boats are good enough and get the job done in most cases and he is right. Neil and Minaret prefer the glassed in bulkheads and stringers type of construction because it is a better way to build boats in the long run, they are right. The difference is money, it costs more to buy higher quality but if your like Smacky and you are happy with good enough then buy good enough. If you want to spend more money and buy a higher quality build then stick with Neil and Minaret. There whats left?

I can agree with you in part, but i dont buy the good enough part when in reality is the substandar enough, lets define good enough, haaa we have this debate over and over, who dont remember the brass seacocks topic, some say are good enough for 4 or 5 years and others claim bronze is better stuff, when you run to the engine room in the dark to shut off that miserable brass valve and you end with the handle in your hand wonder why , why why!!!!! substandar...

We need a new topic about a long list of substandar products....

[minaret]

Originally Posted by Polux

Okay, relatively new methods that are used more and more in production boats given better boats: Infusion techiques, SRIMP techniques. Better resins: Vynilesters and epoxy (did you notice that 30 years ago even some pretty new boats had blisters and that know they are very rare in recent production boats?). The extended use of cored hull (that make sailboats stiffer and lighter) and new materials for cores: Divinycell, Airex, Core cell, the use of carbon to give more resistance to some structural boat parts.

Of course you will find that all those new materials and techniques will only contribute for more fragile and worse sailboats

Every single one of these materials and techniques has been around for at least twenty years. Nothing remotely new there.

[neilpride]

Smack is that your bilge switch wiring??

[smackdaddy]

Originally Posted by robert sailor

Oh Jeeez I thought this thread was going to die after we all agreed that when you can get a row boat across an ocean and the only qualifier for a blue water boat was crossing an ocean and some how keeping the water on the outside of the hull but now we are going back to where we started.
Smacky and Polux are fans of the less costly liner boats and others here prefer the stick built boats. So its kinda like a religious debate, we just hear repeats with a different angle. Smacky thinks today's affordable production boats are good enough and get the job done in most cases and he is right. Neil and Minaret prefer the glassed in bulkheads and stringers type of construction because it is a better way to build boats in the long run, they are right. The difference is money, it costs more to buy higher quality but if your like Smacky and you are happy with good enough then buy good enough. If you want to spend more money and buy a higher quality build then stick with Neil and Minaret. There whats left?

+1.....

[Polux]

Originally Posted by robert sailor

..Polux are fans of the less costly liner boats and others here prefer the stick built boats.... The difference is money, it costs more to buy higher quality but if your like Smacky and you are happy with good enough then buy good enough. If you want to spend more money and buy a higher quality build then stick with Neil and Minaret. There whats left?

It seems you did not get what I am fan off. It is not of less costly boats I am fan of contemporary design, the use of contemporary materials and techniques on boats that are the best in what regards what is made today.

They can be mass produced boats and therefore built on a budget and less expensive or high end boats with equally good design but better interiors and a quality of built that is slightly superior and sometimes vastly superior when carbon and nomex is used on hulls and decks.

I like a lot expensive boats, I like a lot Ourson Rapide that is a kind of the best that has been made in what regards performance cruising, even if it is not a production boat:
Ourson Rapide | finot-conq architectes navals

I like modern production voyage boats like the Cigale, the Allures or Garcia and as Garcia I am not referring the Exploration that I don't like that much.

I even like boats with a classic look and modern design and performance like the XC 45:
Interesting Sailboats: XC 45 MKII
I like mass production well designed and built sailboats.
http://interestingsailboats.blogspot...-year-has.html
http://interestingsailboats.blogspot...e-elan-e3.html
http://interestingsailboats.blogspot.../10/j112e.html
http://interestingsailboats.blogspot...t-of-year.html
http://interestingsailboats.blogspot...salona-33.html
http://interestingsailboats.blogspot...rcona-380.html
http://interestingsailboats.blogspot...ts-42-cat.html
http://interestingsailboats.blogspot...t-rm-ever.html
http://interestingsailboats.blogspot...e-with-by.html
I don't like new boats built with outdated design, like the Island Packets and I think that old designed boats, even if had represented once the best that was made in their day, given enough time, are outdated and outperformed by modern designs in pretty much all the points, from stability to interior space, to performance in a general way. Contemporary boats are better then their ancestors. Not much if they are not very old, very much if the design is much old. There are lots of types of contemporary designs and when well designed, I like them all.

That's what i think and this has nothing to do with mass production boats, or small production boats or semi-custom boat. Has you know I do not even own a mass production boat but a small production boat.

That's clear now?

[smackdaddy]

Originally Posted by neilpride

Smack is that your bilge switch wiring??

I had my standing rigging redone by a yard here last year. While the mast was down, I helped the yard's electrician pull new wire for all the fixtures and instruments. When I got the boat back, the instruments didn't work, the radar was dead, and that is what was left in my bilge.

Oh, and you see that white tape ball below? That was his connection for my radar wiring...



He was pretty dusty. I wonder if he attended NA classes?