Rudder Failures

[minaret]

Originally Posted by smackdaddy

Well, since Bob is no longer able to post here, you probably should be careful talking about him. Always much better to say things like that man-to-man.

In virtually all posts I've seen from Bob regarding design vs. building, he readily admits that he's not a builder. He's a designer. A very, very good one...obviously.

It's funny though that you feel the need to mention attending courses in naval architecture and chemical engineering. Are you a naval architect or chemical engineer? Why do you feel the need to bring that into the discussion if you're not? To establish your viewpoint as superior to designers like Bob Perry?

I think everyone knows that designs on paper are not always what is built in the field. Sometimes that's good (when a detail is improved) - sometimes that's bad (when corners are cut). That's why I said collaboration is always important.

Sometimes those "dusty guys" in the yard who seem know everything can leave this kind of mess after you've paid them quite handsomely for their professionalism:

Don't get upset, nothing bad to say about Bob.


Am I an NA or engineer? No, I certainly don't have degrees in those fields. I'm a boat builder, by definition "Jack of all trades, Master of none". Do it long enough, and it becomes "Jack of all trades, Master of some"!

[Polux]

Originally Posted by minaret

Every single one of these materials and techniques has been around for at least twenty years. Nothing remotely new there.

I thought you were talking about 30 year's old boats and older. And no, some of those materials like some of those cores were not around 20 years ago. But that was not the point, the point is that 20 years ago they were used on some race boats not in mass production boats and today they are used on mass production boats.

[Coops]

Originally Posted by smackdaddy

So are you still trying to argue it?

Merely pointing out the circles are complete.

Coops.

[neilpride]

That suckkkk!! I think you are scammed by a dustyboy, by the way, you know there is professionals electricians to do this kind of job? how much you pay for this wiring job ?

[minaret]

Originally Posted by smackdaddy

I had my standing rigging redone by a yard here last year. While the mast was down, I helped the yard's electrician pull new wire for all the fixtures and instruments. When I got the boat back, the instruments didn't work, the radar was dead, and that is what was left in my bilge.

Oh, and you see that white tape ball below? That was his connection for my radar wiring...



He was pretty dusty. I wonder if he attended NA classes?

Doubt that guy attended any classes at all! Most of the dusty boat builders I know leave electronics to the yard electrician. Sounds like you need to find a new one!

[robert sailor]

What I don't do myself I over see the work on our boat, that sort of work simply could not happen on our boat. Now Smack I know I'm on the boat almost 24/7 and you are busy working while this was done but my first question is....did you pay the man?

[neilpride]

Wait a moment!! wind instrument 1 wire, spreader lights 1 wire, radar 1 big fat wire, steaming light 1 wire, tricolor 1 wire, thats 5 wires coming from the mast, i count in that picture almost 20 or more wires,

[minaret]

Originally Posted by Polux

I thought you were talking about 30 year's old boats and older. And no, some of those materials like some of those cores were not around 20 years ago. But that was not the point, the point is that 20 years ago they were used on some race boats not in mass production boats and today they are used on mass production boats.

Sure, carbon, vacuum bagging, and high end cores are used in production boats. After all, who else would be using such materials? Nobody has debated that. It's just that it's only very expensive production boats that use these methods. Your statement that you prefer modern, expensive, exotic "production" boats shouldn't be a surprise to anyone. The only difference in our advocation is style, not quality. And the line where we draw "quality". For me a Beneteau ain't it...

[smackdaddy]

Yeah - even I do better work than that. And I'm a complete hack.

But that's why I take exception to the comment that people should trust the "yard guys who work on boats every day" when talking about boat design, boat types, construction technologies, etc. That can, obviously, be very dangerous advice.

[neilpride]

We have a electrician dude working in the beneteau 50 this days, charge 80 euros hour, around 100 us hour, doing a excellent job in rebuildding all the DC systems onboard , 100 us hour and probably need 10 days to redone all the systems.. froking expensive but thats the way to go if you want a profesional job..

[minaret]

Originally Posted by robert sailor

What I don't do myself I over see the work on our boat, that sort of work simply could not happen on our boat. Now Smack I know I'm on the boat almost 24/7 and you are busy working while this was done but my first question is....did you pay the man?

+1! I wouldn't. I'd make sure it's done right by a pro who warranties his work. That plate o spaghetti would have to go.

[robert sailor]

Originally Posted by Polux

I thought you were talking about 30 year's old boats and older. And no, some of those materials like some of those cores were not around 20 years ago. But that was not the point, the point is that 20 years ago they were used on some race boats not in mass production boats and today they are used on mass production boats.

Why not list all the cheaper production boat builders and then beside each one make a list of which ones use the newer cores for their hulls, the newer skrimp methods and the use of exotics like carbon fiber so that we can all see exactly what you are talking about.

[smackdaddy]

Originally Posted by neilpride

Wait a moment!! wind instrument 1 wire, spreader lights 1 wire, radar 1 big fat wire, steaming light 1 wire, tricolor 1 wire, thats 5 wires coming from the mast, i count in that picture almost 20 or more wires,

Wind transducer, anchor light (no tricolor), steaming/decklight fixture (no spreader lights), radar, vhf coax. That's it.

[minaret]

Originally Posted by smackdaddy

Yeah - even I do better work than that. And I'm a complete hack.

But that's why I take exception to the comment that people should trust the "yard guys who work on boats every day" when talking about boat design, boat types, construction technologies, etc. That can, obviously, be very dangerous advice.

Woah there! I never suggested you should trust all yard guys, quite the opposite. What I suggested was that if you want an informed opinion about the quality of a build, you should probably trust "the dustiest guy in the yard" (by which I obviously mean the one who's been there longest) more than just about anyone else.

[minaret]

Originally Posted by robert sailor

Why not list all the cheaper production boat builders and then beside each one make a list of which ones use the newer cores for their hulls, the newer skrimp methods and the use of exotics like carbon fiber so that we can all see exactly what you are talking about.

Now THAT would be informative and worthwhile!