Rudder Failures

[avb3]

Originally Posted by robert sailor

AVB3 The 1000 seat on the 650 was a very common mod on the Stroms..were you riding in Alberta or Florida?

Alberta. Love the mountain trips, also the small town weekend tours. At 6'4" the 650 stock was just a bit to short, and the 1000 mod worked well.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by robert sailor

Hey Polux..great pic, you have to be in great shape to ride anything close to motocross.

Yes , that was 20 years ago. That was not motocross but Rally racing, kind of your Baja but only 500km on more demanding tracks: Lots of mud and twisting tracks. Fast too, the best guys managed to make about 80km/h average.
Cars and motorcycles alike. One of my best memories regards the images that i recorded on my head when I was overtaken by Vataneen on his very special Paris dakar Peugeot 405. I managed to follow him close for 5kms or so. What a spectacle!!! what a driving!!!

[neilpride]

Originally Posted by Polux

These are French designed boats even if the Akilaria is madeunder Fench management in Tunisia for costs. What he can find in French regarding the way the Jeanneau and the Akilaria are built leave no doubts:

"Les varangues sont faites en monolithique verre vinylester infusé en moule femelle. Celles-ci sont collées au PLEXUS (colle méthacrylate) dans le fond de coque. Ce matériau garantit un collage mécanique mais aussi chimique.
Le pont est aussi collé au PLEXUS sur la coque. Les chandeliers boulonnés traversant la zone de collage coque pont complètent la liaison."
Philippe FISTON Le bateau TERRITOIRES ATTITUDE

There are structural parts that are glued to the boat, no doubt about that.

Regarding the Jeanneau SF 3200 the use of Plexus or a similar glue is even more intensive since the boat is built the same way other jeanneaus are, that means with a hull and a an interior molded hull bonded to the first one.

COQUE : Infusion avec sandwich balsa. Contre moule structurel collé Plexus®.
Sun Fast 3200 chez Motte Marine

I dont know Paulo, you know, you have lots of links and profesional advice from Minaret regarding the dam plexus and the grid liners and the bulkheads etc...and you still doing circles with the same song, i post 2 pictures regarding the Akilaria and the sun fast 32, Akilaria use plexus in the bulkheads but also Glass tape around the perimeter, zoom in in the picture even Smack afirm they are glassed, the second one is a stringer and supports infused with RESIN AND GLASS in a sun fast 32, if they bond the bulkheads with plexus its something i dont know, if they use glass tape its something i dont know, im sure they are more robust compared with tipical junk coming this days from some brands, since you know a lot about plexus and grid liners let me ask this questions , feel free to answer or not.

A. Why you think plexus alone is superior to a well FG tab in the bulkheads.

B. Why other builders dont follow the trend with Plexus?

C.Do you see actually any drawback in grid liners glued with plexus.

D. You believe that Plexus for any serious Ocean Racer is the answer?

E . You see any diferenece in cost from a builder point of view between FG and glues?

G.You agree with a production line with a hig demand exploring ways to speed the production and hurting the final quality, time is money remember?

H. Do you work for Plexus??
Cheers...

[robert sailor]

Polux you are equally as crazy as the rest of us, it probably was the perfect type of riding for you as even though you can't quite keep up, you never quit! LOL

[Polux]

Originally Posted by neilpride

...
A. Why you think plexus alone is superior to a well FG tab in the bulkheads.
B. Why other builders dont follow the trend with Plexus?
.

I never said that plexus alone was superior to well FG tab in Bulkheads. I said that it was used with success by Beneteau and Jeanneau as well as other brands for structural purposes and that in some situations regarding structural purposes was better than tabbing. For example for bonding the inner structural molded hull to the outside hull on Jeanneau and Beneteau and for bonding the structure of the boat to the bottom of the hull, sometimes in a mixed process other times alone. Plenty brands use Plexus or similar for that. They don't say it because many guys like you continue to think that anything that is bonded is weaker then tabbed and that is no god for publicity.

I reacted to Minaret saying that tabbing was better for everything.

I believe that in what regards bulkheads the better method is structural bonding plus tabbing and not tabbing alone. That is the way my boat has the bulkheads fixed and not only mine but many well built boats.

Regarding the use of bonding in boat building, like in many other sectors, it is just beginning and I bet with you that in the future we will see a much increased use. The evolution of bonding agent has been huge on the last 20 years and I am certain it will continue to be on the next years. As usually Beneteau was pioneer on the use of Bonding agents in boat building, as it has been pioneer on boat design and now on sail design. Pioneers rarely are best sellers because normally their products reveal problems related with that pioneering and the avantgard on the use of untried materials and techniques.

The fact that Beneteau is a pioneer and a leader says a lot about their research team and engineer quality. They are not only pioneers but the nº1 on sales and that means that they sell quality products. They are using bonding agents for 20 years and the boats are not coming apart and that surely would happen if what You and Minaret says about the terrible quality of their products (and bonding techniques) was true.

Obviously, besides any other advantages that bonding have there is an evident advantage in what regards time on building and that means less expensive boats....but boats are already expensive enough. What we all want is less expensive boats with good quality and Beneteau and Jeanneau seem to have managed that.

[neilpride]

And there come the Question H: Do you have first hand experience repairing boats to backup your opinions or is just lots of marketing and brochures from the internet making you a internet expert, sorry sounds like that.... Because in my case i take pictures from each boat repaired ,something like before and after.

So if for you, better method is structural bonding plus tabbing , tell me what is a plywood bulkhead glued with a fillet of plexus and nothing else, soemthing like is good enough?

Beneteaus are sometimes called Bendytoys, now i dont use this Word in the realworld and i think is a bit rude , but hell is well know around the sailing comunity, ask yourself why?

[smackdaddy]

Originally Posted by minaret

Looks nice. But, just so ya know, I do more than that each week. And I've been doing it a very long time. Today, I did three color matches, and a bunch of repairs. And still had time for this! Here's an old thread with a few pics-


http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ard-67680.html

Well you better be doing more than that. It's your freakin' job bro!

This was the first fiberglass work I'd ever done. It was fun.

[avb3]

Originally Posted by Polux

........
The fact that Beneteau is a pioneer and a leader says a lot about their research team and engineer quality. They are not only pioneers but the nº1 on sales and that means that they sell quality products....

Being number one does not necessarily equate to quality... it can also mean good enough. McDonalds knows this well.

[robert sailor]

Polux your logic is really flawed. Because Beneteau is the largest builder of sailboats in the world it is #1 in quality. OK I'll use your logic with a product we all know very well, Automobiles..who is the largest in the world? answer Chinese manufacturers, so how many Chinese cars have you been buying recently? Next down the list is Japan producing 1/2 the volume of Chinese builders but many would argue they are one of the best. Trailing Japan by 15% or so are the Germans, you know BMW, Merc, Porsche. Never assume because some company is really successful in their sales volumes that they are world leaders in quality.

[colemj]

Originally Posted by robert sailor

Polux your logic is really flawed. Because Beneteau is the largest builder of sailboats in the world it is #1 in quality. OK I'll use your logic with a product we all know very well, Automobiles..who is the largest in the world? answer Chinese manufacturers, so how many Chinese cars have you been buying recently? Next down the list is Japan producing 1/2 the volume of Chinese builders but many would argue they are one of the best. Trailing Japan by 15% or so are the Germans, you know BMW, Merc, Porsche. Never assume because some company is really successful in their sales volumes that they are world leaders in quality.

Not even close on this - even if one was to erroneously group all 12 Chinese automobile companies together as a single manufacturer. While China buys the largest number of automobiles in the world, only 44% of them are made by Chinese companies. The rest are foreign. GM is probably the most popular brand there.

Toyota and Nissan together build and sell more than twice as many cars worldwide as all 12 Chinese manufacturers combined.

Not even India makes the list, and they both sell a lot of cars and export them more than China.

The top 10 largest automakers in the world | Driving

Mark

[robert sailor]

OK so "my" logic is flawed, who is the largest builder and are they the best in the world?

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by robert sailor

a64 pilot when I was a young fellow Huskies ruled the dirt. I still like the sound of them. Sounds like you were quite the rider yourself.

I've got a T shirt somewhere that says.

The older I get, the faster I was.

[robert sailor]

A64Pilot, for sure, we were all faster "back then". Faster horses, younger women, more whiskey!

[Polux]

Originally Posted by neilpride

And there come the Question H: Do you have first hand experience repairing boats to backup your opinions or is just lots of marketing and brochures from the internet making you a internet expert, sorry sounds like that.......
Beneteaus are sometimes called Bendytoys, now i dont use this Word in the realworld and i think is a bit rude , but hell is well know around the sailing comunity, ask yourself why?

The main point here is that you and Minaret have been defending than boats that use extensively bonding process, mainly Beneteau and Jeanneau are inadequately built due to the use of that process.

I don't have to know nothing about boat building to know both of you are wrong. Beneteau uses bonding for the last 20 years and Jeanneau for many years. Beneteau is leader of the market and Jeanneau is one of the most popular brands with the sales son the rise.

A product is leader on a given sector because it offer the better relation price/quality and have a reputation of quality. Sailors would not have made Beneteau the nº1 on the sailboat sales if the boats were "Bendy toys" and did not perform or age adequately as you and Minaret suggest. There are more than 20000 Beneteaus and Jeanneaus built on the last 15 years. How many do you know that have failed structurally in a catastrophic way? as you suggest would be easy to happen.

It is funny how you can have a so distorted view of the reality: "Beneteaus are sometimes called Bendytoys, now i dont use this Word in the realworld and i think is a bit rude , but hell is well know around the sailing comunity, ask yourself why?"
The fact is that the sailing community, at least the ones of those that have the money to have a new boat, choose Beneteau as the most interesting offer on the market. There are cheaper boats, but they made Beneteau nº1. I guess that is the real question you should ask yourself: Why? Maybe you think they have been mistaken by shiny brochures. Sure that can happen, for a year or two, but on the last 15 years?

[Polux]

Originally Posted by robert sailor

Polux your logic is really flawed. Because Beneteau is the largest builder of sailboats in the world it is #1 in quality. OK I'll use your logic with a product we all know very well, Automobiles..who is the largest in the world? answer Chinese manufacturers, so how many Chinese cars have you been buying recently? Next down the list is Japan producing 1/2 the volume of Chinese builders but many would argue they are one of the best. Trailing Japan by 15% or so are the Germans, you know BMW, Merc, Porsche. Never assume because some company is really successful in their sales volumes that they are world leaders in quality.

You know that I had never said that. Why are you saying that I have said that? What I said was that nobody make nº1 in sales without a quality product. Not obviously the better quality product but the best overal quality for the price. Nobody would be buying a cheap car if the car broke easily and that's why they don't sell many Chinese cars out of China.

Beneteau was the company that made more money selling boats. Regarding cars it was no Chinese brand but a brand justifiably know for the reliability of their products and good relation price/quality, Toyota, the second one was Volkswagen (you could research about what you post and by the way, look better to what I say).