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Old 02-11-2014, 00:59   #181
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Re: Rudder Failures

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You should not get confused just because it is not a green snot and it is a white snot

Look under all the bulkheads, see the white snot?
There is clearly seen in the photo tabbing of the bulkhead to the hull. I don't know what the stuff is bonding the bulkheads to the hull but it looks just like epoxy with filler. And the bulkheads are laminated composite not plain plywood. Nothing at all like the Benneteau bulkheads.
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Old 02-11-2014, 06:44   #182
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Re: Rudder Failures

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..
- As I recall, this thread was/is supposedly about rudder failures. Not green snot adhesive, bulkheads, or if you want to get technical about it, not even auto pilots...,
Yes, let's talk about rudder failures: Statistic results, like the ones from the last 10 years of ARC or from some American rallies seem to show that the boats that have problems are not relatively new mass production boats but older boats considered very seaworthy boats (not what we call mass production boats).

It also gives me the impression that there are more rudder failures on the US than in Europe and that would be consistent not only with that 1% percentage refereed by an American author but also with the much bigger number of older boats sailing on the US in comparison with Europe. That percentage, as the global percentage regarding the many thousands of boats that made the ARC show, has nothing to do with an European percentage (the ARC boats are almost all European boats).

Maybe we should look if that 1% percentage regarding the US is true and if so why the percentage in Europe, in boats that are crossing the Atlantic, is much lower.

This leads me to believe that modern rudder designs (used on mass production boats) are not as bad as some here wanted make believe and that adequate maintenance to the system and eventual substitution of wear out pieces (ant that may include the blade) is the determinant factor.

Some designs just need more maintenance and replacements then others but obliviously, by the statistic results even very strong boats like that steel Motiva 39, that was the only boat to lose the rudder on the last ARC (With way more than 300 boats) need an adequate maintenance.

More than bad design it seems to me that is that culture, or lack of it, regarding the need to make an adequate maintenance to a rudder, that is on the origin of most rudder loses (not considering the ones that are damaged due to grounding or violent shocks with big submerged objects).

I abstained myself to post on threads about the perfect bluewater 30000 USD boat because I don't think that for that money you would buy a bluewater boat. You will buy a boat that 30 or 40 years ago was a bluewater boat. For having it as good a bluewater as it was 30 years ago you would have to spend so much money in upgrading the boat (from rig, mast, rudder, engine, valves, electronics) that in the end it would not cost 30 000USD but 3 times that or more.

This type of culture, that make some believe that they can buy a 30 000 Dollar boat, once an offshore boat and go crossing the Atlantic, that what was once an offshore boat is still an offshore boat, is what makes in my opinion for most of the rudder loses (and other situations were the boat has to be abandoned). That and the lack of seamanship of many that buy new boats and think that is enough to go out bluewater, but that is another story and has nothing to do with the boats.
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Old 02-11-2014, 07:29   #183
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Re: Rudder Failures

Polux makes some good points about maintenance and failures. I know some of the older designs have had failures, which makes a good talking point but I don't share his view that the newer boats are problem free or that much better than older boats. We know that a B40 was lost when a keel went south and we know that Blue Pearl sunk when the rear bulkhead collapsed, this is very recently. I also know that out of the thousands and thousands of production boats made only a handful actually venture offshore so I'm not reassured that these companies can tip their hat to their product being offshore quality. I think as a group(sailors) our standards are quite low. Manufacturers also build aircraft and if any of them ever had rudder failures at the rate we have in boats you would never get anyone to fly. Its perfectly natural not to bad mouth one of your own decisions but it seems to me that being a little more skeptical of manufacturers hype and bullshit would be a lot healthier for our passions in this sport of sailing.
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Old 02-11-2014, 08:09   #184
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Re: Rudder Failures

The bottom line is literally the bottom line. Manufacturers that want to stay in business have to build to the price point of their customers. So ultimately it is the decisions of the new boat buyers that determine how boats will be designed and built.
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Old 02-11-2014, 08:14   #185
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Polux makes some good points about maintenance and failures. I know some of the older designs have had failures, which makes a good talking point but I don't share his view that the newer boats are problem free or that much better than older boats. We know that a B40 was lost when a keel went south and we know that Blue Pearl sunk when the rear bulkhead collapsed, this is very recently. I also know that out of the thousands and thousands of production boats made only a handful actually venture offshore so I'm not reassured that these companies can tip their hat to their product being offshore quality. I think as a group(sailors) our standards are quite low.....
Maybe you don't get my point: I am not saying that new boats are better built in what regards their rudders and regarding you saying that European mass production boats don't get that much offshore, I am only considering on statistics the only that go bluewater (ARC).

The point is that the boats that make the ARC (most of then), like most European boats are recent models, many of then with few years. It is only about that that I am talking about: Age and lack of maintenance as main cause. American boats that participate in rallies (most of them) are normally older.

Regarding problems with Beneteaus you have to consider that on the last 15 years, that is what for many is considered a "recent" boat, they have made more than 20 000 cruising boats and that the accidents that happen regards a very tiny proportion. If you consider for example Island Packets and I know that some had problems too, you have to consider that on the last 15 years they had been built in a much smaller scale, maybe 20 times less. That makes that for each problem on a Island Packet you had to have 20 on Beneteaus, or something like that, and it does not seem to me that happens.

If the problem in what regards rudders in modern mass production boats is not as big as many want to make believe (and probably most can be attributed to a lack of correct maintenance), the problems with keels are even less, by a factor, and many that I know off had to do with non reported previous groundings (and the necessary repair that in most cases is needed after that) that sometimes have no visible effects.

I am not saying with this that a modern fin keel will last forever and that after a great number of years of use the boat will not present fatigue on that area (depending on use). The same is saying that I don't believe that modern boats will last forever and that at some point (like cars) they should be ditched, simply because serious repairs would be more expensive then buying a new used boat with less years and in better condition. But we are talking here about boats with 30 years or more. That is right now a problem in Europe, I mean what to do with those boats that nobody wants and that have a cost to recycle.
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Old 02-11-2014, 08:14   #186
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Re: Rudder Failures

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The bottom line is literally the bottom line. Manufacturers that want to stay in business have to build to the price point of their customers. So ultimately it is the decisions of the new boat buyers that determine how boats will be designed and built.
Couldn't agree more, I think most buyers do a better job of due diligence on buying a new flat screen TV than they do buying a new boat.
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Old 02-11-2014, 08:18   #187
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Re: Rudder Failures

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I abstained myself to post on threads about the perfect bluewater 30000 USD boat because I don't think that for that money you would buy a bluewater boat. You will buy a boat that 30 or 40 years ago was a bluewater boat. For having it as good a bluewater as it was 30 years ago you would have to spend so much money in upgrading the boat (from rig, mast, rudder, engine, valves, electronics) that in the end it would not cost 30 000USD but 3 times that or more.

This type of culture, that make some believe that they can buy a 30 000 Dollar boat, once an offshore boat and go crossing the Atlantic, that what was once an offshore boat is still an offshore boat, is what makes in my opinion for most of the rudder loses (and other situations were the boat has to be abandoned). That and the lack of seamanship of many that buy new boats and think that is enough to go out bluewater, but that is another story and has nothing to do with the boats.
This is a brilliant point. I wish more people understood this. I think a lot of newbs are getting very bad advice on the forums in this regard.

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...but I don't share his view that the newer boats are problem free...
Where does he say this again? Sorry dude, you're not making very credible arguments here.
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Old 02-11-2014, 08:19   #188
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Re: Rudder Failures

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.. So ultimately it is the decisions of the new boat buyers that determine how boats will be designed and built.
That one I don't understand. It was not always like that?
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Old 02-11-2014, 08:35   #189
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Re: Rudder Failures

I think the worst load on a rudder is reversing, the rudder is pushing the full water load, go real slow when reversing.
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Old 02-11-2014, 08:58   #190
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Re: Rudder Failures

Polux,
When you say that the decision to produce boats at the cheapest possible price was driven by customers you are of course partly right because who in this world doesn't want more for less. Well the perception anyway because these days you don't get more for less, you get less for less. The customer is the problem as many agree because our standards are too low. I think most of this started with the charter market when Bavaria was cranking out boats cheaper than anyone and in the race to the bottom the other builders all jumped on that train rather than lose out. So now we have a new bench mark which is much lower than anything produced in the past. Yes they are prettier, they have 2 wheels, they have huge cockpits and lots of light below but the deck cleats are installed with fender washers instead of back up plates, all this on a 50 footer. The last time I saw fender washers under deck cleats was on a 20 footer I had and that was considered cheap. That picture will always be in my mind and speaks to the culture of mass produced boats today.
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Old 02-11-2014, 09:04   #191
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED View Post
Gents,
There's a couple of key things of note:
- As I recall, this thread was/is supposedly about rudder failures. Not green snot adhesive, bulkheads, or if you want to get technical about it, not even auto pilots.
- The resolution of that image of the bulkheads in the AC3 above, is too poor to determine anything. Including whether or not they're finished attaching the bulkheads.
Nor if that white line is whatever they're using as the "flavor of the month" to prevent hard spots from the bulkheads, or is actually a bonding agent.
- Tabbed in bulkheads can & do fail too, especially if improperly done. Though regardless of proper or improper, if done with cloth & resin, the bond strength is FAR weaker than much of what it's bonding, as it's a secondary bond. Period.
If in doubt, ask me outside of this thread, & I'll happily suggest some good reads on the subject.

I'm gonna' guess that somehow, everyone here commenting about bulkhead installation here doesn't know under what various; circumstances, design, & materials types, that X, or Y constitutes a proper installation. And even if I'm incorrect on this, can we please go back to something resembling the original topic.

As, for instance. I'm curious as to whether or not using a high pressure water jet cutter to machine slots into a rudder's shaft for various structural pieces is a viable option. Or does it rank up there with those ways of doing such, which molecularly alter most grades of stainless, which make them both weaker & less corrosion resistant?
If it's viable, who's used it, how precise is it, what's the cost like, & it's drawbacks are?

I never see anything not welded to the stock in the lower part of the rudder , but you raise a valid good point , if there is inserts in the stock to fit the internal blades maybe the waterloged internal corrosión at the welding points is eliminated?? well my rudder stock is made in naval bronze, the internal blades are fited to the stock in slots, if i remember someone pointed that in case of the rudder trying to spin in relation to the axis the blades just bend and dont broke off like in a welded blade, but still pose a disloged ruder anyway......

I believe that the blades or rounded bars welded to the axis are a weak point , some cruisers rebuild their rudders using a diferent and stronger idea, like this one... is overkill and probably exaggerated, but if you forget the huge ss flat panel you have 4 welded ss profiles all around the stock making the thing stronger than 3 small blades welded just in the base to the stock...

Most internal problems in my eyes come from thin rudder layups filled with foam without a proper internal structure , cracks in the top off the rudder , wáter found a path to the internal structure and corrosión start to deteriorate the welding points....
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Old 02-11-2014, 09:06   #192
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Re: Rudder Failures

Smack, Robert and all the others that like sailboats...completely out of topic, but just have a look at this that happened only two hours ago:
Interesting Sailboats: AND HERE THEY GO AT FULL SPEED POINTING TO STORMY SEAS: BEAUTIFUL IMAGES
We all love sailboats and I believe you all will love these images.
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Old 02-11-2014, 09:26   #193
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Polux,
When you say that the decision to produce boats at the cheapest possible price was driven by customers you are of course partly right because who in this world doesn't want more for less. Well the perception anyway because these days you don't get more for less, you get less for less. ....
I don't agree and the rudder reliability is a good point in what regards this.

If we analyze the statistic result of the loss of rudders on the ARC between 1986 to 2007 and between 2008 to 2013 we will see that there is a huge statistic difference between modern mass production boats that lost the rudder on those periods, to the point of being 0% on the last 5 years (to my knowledge). We are talking here about many thousands of boats that crossed the Atlantic.

I believe that this has not only to do with the accumulated experience in producing spade rudders and eliminating defects and vulnerabilities but most of all to the growing number that delivers the production and design to Jefa, a specialist in the design and manufacture of rudders and rudder system.

If having the feed back of many hundred boats can be effective to improve a design and making it more efficient, Jefa has the feedback of many thousands of boats and has been able to deliver products that due to their large scale production allows robotic and computerized control, systems that are not only probably cheaper to produce but also more efficient and reliable. That's why a growing number of mass production builders have not only their rudders systems made by Jefa, but proudly announce that as a commercial advantage, as a warranty of a better product.
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Old 02-11-2014, 09:33   #194
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Smack, Robert and all the others that like sailboats...completely out of topic, but just have a look at this that happened only two hours ago:
Interesting Sailboats: AND HERE THEY GO AT FULL SPEED POINTING TO STORMY SEAS: BEAUTIFUL IMAGES
We all love sailboats and I believe you all will love these images.
Thanks for the thought my friend but I have very limited access and video's eat me alive but when I get wifi I'll have a look. Have you hung up your spurs this year? Its too bad we didn't connect in the Med this year, just missed you. I'm sure it would have been a great visit.
I see you've taken on the multi guys, good for you, its entertaining!
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Old 02-11-2014, 10:10   #195
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Thanks for the thought my friend but I have very limited access and video's eat me alive but when I get wifi I'll have a look. Have you hung up your spurs this year? Its too bad we didn't connect in the Med this year, just missed you. I'm sure it would have been a great visit.
I see you've taken on the multi guys, good for you, its entertaining!
In fact I like sailboats, multihulls and momohulls alike. I like fast boats and I like sailing. Regarding multihulls I like particularly trimarans and I think I would have one if they were not so damn expensive for the space, or putting other way around, if I had the money

I will take as much on the multihull guys as much as on the mono guys, if I do not agree with what they are saying. That does not mean obviously that I am always right Yes, discussing boats on internet forums is entertaining for those who like boats.

Yes unfortunately I finished my sailing season. I would like to do as you have done this year (the summer in the med and the "winter" on the Caribbean) but I have to look for my wife's mother and my two kids, even if already grown up are still learning how to "sail" alone and the living is not easy here. Maybe in a couple of years.

I would like to have another boat here, a smaller one for daysailing on winter sunny days, but I have not the money for it. The boat is in Italy on dry and I am in Portugal. I will get back to it end of April to prepare it for the next season. Now its family time.

Regards
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