Rudder Failures

[Polux]

Originally Posted by DeepFrz

Polox, I can tell you that not all rudder failures have been well documented on the internet. Only high profile and SAR incidents get posted and not even all of those. Unfortunately there is no central registry where accidents and things like rudder failures are kept track of. I tried to keep track of the abandoned and sinking boats. This year I had 11 of which I believe 9 to be loss of steering, mostly due to rudder loss, 1 was loss of keel but the boat survived and one was loss of propulsion. But sometimes it is hard to know the exact cause.

Edit: it is very hard to track these problems as many are not posted on these forums.

I know that. That's why I am using only the ARC data, a high profile rally very well documented and object of reports from several magazines. The data from the years between 1997 and 2007 come from the ARC itself, so it is reliable. The last 5 years are still fresh. I am sure that we can find all the data on the internet regarding lost rudders on those 5 editions. I have also the Yachting world magazines of those years. They make always a special edition about everything that happened on the rally, how different equipment work...and of course a lost rudder are big news.

[smackdaddy]

Originally Posted by minaret

Rebuilding a Pacific Seacraft rudder now. How many rudders have I had to fix which broke first? Several. How many have I repaired, rebuilt, or replaced, which were headed for imminent failure? Many. Dozens, for sure.

Want to decrease the odds of rudder failure, or, much more likely, a rudder rebuild? Don't buy a cheap boat with under built steering gear.

I think all this talk of percentage of boats who suffer failure at sea means little. Most bad rudders are caught before failure. Percentage of boats which have had a rudder replaced or rebuilt might be more revealing.

Rudders fail - on bluewater boats and on production boats. So, price really isn't the primary factor. The main takeaway is that you need to look after your rudder like you look after any other system on your boat (more-so actually). The issue is, most people (it seems) don't.

However, if you're working on that many rudders, maybe this is changing.

[neilpride]

Hard to see big numbers in boats like Hr or Amels for example, or Swans! i mean big numbers, sure a Swan can loose a rudder but is rare, most rudders failures come from production boats , that kind of boats made it in a week and pumped from the yard doors like donuts!!! Hunter have a pretty good record... Im sure they are doing better this days, i hope...


Price really is the primary factor Mack, design and build a really good steering system cost money , like everything in a boat, why you think they take corners and shortcuts here and there??

[DeepFrz]

I just realized that I had one more rudder incident logged with not much information.

Unknown boat not abandoned but rudder shaft snapped.
Rudder Stock Failure - Cruisers & Sailing Forums

[smackdaddy]

Originally Posted by neilpride

Price really is the primary factor Mack, design and build a really good steering system cost money , like everything in a boat, why you think they take corners and shortcuts here and there??

Well, I believe engineering, materials, and maintenance are the primary factors. Price is in there - but it's not primary - at least not in the boats we're talking about.

[transmitterdan]

Originally Posted by smackdaddy

Well, I believe engineering, materials, and maintenance are the primary factors. Price is in there - but it's not primary.

If you build boats for a living and think money is not a primary factor in how all systems, steering included, are designed and built then your career will be very short.

[smackdaddy]

Originally Posted by transmitterdan

If you build boats for a living and think money is not a primary factor in how all systems, steering included, are designed and built then your career will be very short.

You're missing my point - in the boats we are talking about in this thread, rudder failures are seen in boats that were/are on the low end of the price spectrum and on the high end of the price spectrum. In this regard, price is not the primary factor of success or failure, regardless of where the builder put the money.

[downunder]

Rudders, keels and that sinking feeling... | Sailing News

https://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/...reaches-shore/

Couple of cases from a recent search

[smackdaddy]

Originally Posted by downunder

Rudders, keels and that sinking feeling... | Sailing News

Nice advert for Elan. But not that helpful.

[transmitterdan]

Originally Posted by smackdaddy

Nice advert for Elan. But not that helpful.

Do you think brand B will be running puff pieces like that for publication? I doubt it.

[robert sailor]

Originally Posted by smackdaddy

You're missing my point - in the boats we are talking about in this thread, rudder failures are seen in boats that were/are on the low end of the price spectrum and on the high end of the price spectrum. In this regard, price is not the primary factor of success or failure, regardless of where the builder put the money.

I'm not sure what your background is but your thought that price is not a factor, number 1 actually, suggests that you are not involved in how manufactures make decisions. I'm in the building business and I understand it very well, others are in the rebuild and repair business and they understand it very well. You seem to believe that the steering systems in the cheaper boats are built to the same standards as higher cost boats and that the failure rate is the same no matter what you pay for a boat, you are simply wrong. Others are trying to give you feedback so you might be a little more skeptical on how you view this topic but it doesn't appear that its sinking in.

[transmitterdan]

The price paid to the manufacturer for a yacht is a weak function of the cost to build it. That ratio is known as gross margin. Prices paid are driven by many factors such as perceived quality, brand recognition and competitive pricing for similarly situated boats. The challenge for the manufacturer is to get the gross margin as high as possible while trying to increase sales volume. It's up to the buyer to ascertain whether the means the builder's use to control their manufacturing costs are adequate. This thread clearly demonstrates that there is ample reason to dig around in the steering area and see how it was put together. But it is equally clear that many buyers don't. How many times has someone posted about seeing a new boat at a show and were impressed by the sturdy steering or bilge access. Usually it's more about location of heads and sleeping arrangements. Builders know this and prioritize accordingly.

If all manufacturers disclosed their gross margin and "sales and marketing costs" I suspect many would have a different perception of who makes the best yachts.

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by Polux

If you consider for example Island Packets and I know that some had problems too,

Polux,
Not doubting, just want to learn. I haven't heard of any failures on an IP, but if there have been, mind posting or sending me that data, links or whatever you have?

If there is any kind of common failure mode with an IP's rudder, I want to know what it is and look especially hard at that area this winter when she is on the hard.

Thanks

[a64pilot]

Guys
You have to be very careful with statistics as well.
Ex., Volvo's are not necessarily that much "safer" an automobile as other makes, but they have the reputation and largely due to that you see most Volvo's in the right lane driven by people that are cautious and follow the rules and have very few accidents.

I bought a 93 Camaro Z28 to take with me to Germany, the 93 was at that time the quickest and fastest stock Camaro that had been manufactured to that date and believe it or not according to the Insurance companies and the NHTSC, it had the best ratings of any American made car of it's size, so in an identical accident, the Camaro was the safest American made car of it's size to be in.
A couple of years later the actual accident statistics came out, guess what? You were more likely to be killed in a Camaro than any other American car of it's size? I guess the average Z28 driver wan't in the right lane following the rules?

So it seems the average user and the average use can have a rather large effect on statistics.

I liked my German neighbors saying about statistics, He said in Germany they have a saying, "Statistics are like a lady of the evening, if your paying, you get what you want."

[HappyMdRSailor]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

I liked my German neighbors saying about statistics, He said in Germany they have a saying, "Statistics are like a lady of the evening, if your paying, you get what you want."

Seriously one of the best quotes of all time...