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Old 12-04-2014, 07:51   #1336
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Originally Posted by 12BCruzn View Post

Perhaps buried somewhere in the zillions of posts on this subject is already a reference to recent (but in no way new) events that the internet naysayers (those nattering nabobs of negativity) would also use to be critical of young parents who make dangerous choices for their children:

Car Hits Orlando-Area Day Care - WSJ.com

Video shows Osceola day care worker shoving child into cot | www.wftv.com

I haven't heard any comments about how irresponsible it is to put your child in a daycare center.

I also recall a few years ago, near my home, 3 small children dying in the back seat of a minivan when rear ended by tractor/trailer rig.

I never heard any comments about how irresponsible it is to drive with your kids on the freeway or strap your kids into their car seats in the back of a minivan.

As an ER doctor I saw many terrible things happen to kids on land. Risk follows us always and can not be eliminated. Going to sea introduces some risk but eliminates others. The odds of picking up a bad at sea is probably far less than it is on land.
Reminds me of when I first sailed from Connecticut to Florida and people would ask me wasn't that dangerous? I would reply yes I almost got killed three times. the first time I was walking down the street to get provisions and a car going 40 miles an hour or more swerved and almost hit me. The reaction was the same every time. Oh that doesn't count. Now if I told a story about a shark jumping into my cockpit...

Edit. And yes it actually happened as well as the other two times. I was safer off at sea
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Old 12-04-2014, 08:53   #1337
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Re: Forum Member's Boat and Daughter in Trouble off of Mexico

Anyone else think it's just about time to close this thread down?
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Old 12-04-2014, 08:56   #1338
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Re: Forum Member's Boat and Daughter in Trouble off of Mexico

No....leave it going....it keeps the nuts in here and out of the other topics...
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Old 12-04-2014, 08:57   #1339
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Re: Forum Member's Boat and Daughter in Trouble off of Mexico

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Anyone else think it's just about time to close this thread down?
It's been an interesting read!

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Old 12-04-2014, 08:57   #1340
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Re: Forum Member's Boat and Daughter in Trouble off of Mexico

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Anyone else think it's just about time to close this thread down?
I've been thinking this for a while myself. It's served its purpose.
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Old 12-04-2014, 08:58   #1341
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Re: Forum Member's Boat and Daughter in Trouble off of Mexico

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It's been an interesting read!

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Old 12-04-2014, 09:00   #1342
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Re: Forum Member's Boat and Daughter in Trouble off of Mexico

Just some closure on an issue. Gotta post it from video

13:40 Q: Why didn't they start heading back in?

Clay: Time. They were three weeks out with favorable winds. Turning around and heading back toward shore with his sick daughter would have taken too long, so he decided, "Hey, my family is worth more than my boat, so lets go ahead and get out of here while we can." And he gave us no illusions of that. I asked him the first night what his intentions were with the boat, and he didn't even hesitate. We're getting out of here. WEre going to scuttle the boat. My family is more important.
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Old 12-04-2014, 09:00   #1343
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Re: Forum Member's Boat and Daughter in Trouble off of Mexico

This thread has become quite lengthy and hard to follow. Several have used their retrospectoscope to be critical of previous posts by Eric. While I see their point, I also must conclude that until you have been in a situation requiring rescue, and sat in their shoes, you likely cannot understand what is going on in their heads. A friend of mine required rescue somewhere in the Bahamas about a year ago in his ~30 ft power boat. He got caught in some weather and got pooped on so to speak resulting in the loss of his engines. He was scared to death and had a whole different perspective on life after this incident. He is a very experienced fellow and prepared the best he could. Yet, he got into trouble. His boat was salvaged. My point is that RH will have a different perspective forward having learned from this experience. I cannot imagine being in his situation and I applaud his decision to call for help when he knew it was time to throw in the towel. He was prepared - sat phone, PLB, SSBs, etc. Experience and wisdom become apparent when things go wrong - not when its smooth sailing.
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Old 12-04-2014, 09:05   #1344
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Re: Forum Member's Boat and Daughter in Trouble off of Mexico

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The Kaufman's called for medical advice. A CG surgeon called in the PJs. Once the PJs were on board, they needed to get off and determined that the child needed to be cleared by a pediatrician.
Which part of that required the captain's presence? If none is the correct answer, the choice to abandon a sound vessel was just that - a choice. I'm not criticizing the choice although I doubt it is one 90% of cruisers would make unless the boat was completely disabled, which this one apparently wasn't. But it was a choice and if it means anything it has to mean that at that point in time, getting off the boat seemed like a better option to Eric than staying on it. I'll be interested in hearing the why of that choice from the only person who can tell us - Eric, if he chooses to.

In the meantime, and even if some don't want to hear about it, there is value to newbie cruisers in learning from those with experience on how to avoid finding yourself in the Kaufman's predicament, and understanding what the Kaufman's had to say about their voyage before it ended as it did is a good source of information. Which is why I remain baffled that when Charles Weber quotes those very words for insight he is accused of being a troll.

When Donald Crowhurst jumped off his ship clutching his clock in the middle of the Atlantic if he had been a regular on CF perhaps he would have enjoyed the same consideration and prickly defense from other forumines, what with him being such a careful mariner and all. But it was reading his diaries found on the ship that showed that he had gone completely insane. We're looking for the black box of MH 379 for the same reason - the words of the participants will tell us a lot about why what happened happened. Since the Kaufmans have removed at least some of their blogs, I guess we'll have to wait to hear from them, if we do, which I hope so.
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Old 12-04-2014, 09:05   #1345
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Re: Forum Member's Boat and Daughter in Trouble off of Mexico

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Originally Posted by VirtualVagabond View Post
MarkJ's hammock idea was something we were talking about a couple of days ago. In PNG the women carry their babies in a 'billim'. Basically a hammock with the ends tied together. The baby hangs behind them with the knot sitting on top of the mother's head. When they get home the billim gets hung on a hook in the shade below the house. Works perfectly and would be ideal in a boat.
I have tried a couple of hammock ideas on boats and it didn't work out too well for me. We picked up two small hammock like things to hang in the galley to hold fruit. Worked great at the dock but at sea they swung wildly and either smashed the fruit or threw it out onto the sole. We tied bungee cords to the hammocks to keep them more or less under control but still wasn't great.

Similar experience with people sized hammocks. Hung one between the mast and forestay. Even at anchor if the boat was rocking much at all the hammock set up an oscillation that magnified the motion and was just too much.






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PS. kids raised on boats are the best behaved, mature, responsible, happiest kids by far.
In general that has been my experience as well.
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Old 12-04-2014, 09:14   #1346
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Re: Forum Member's Boat and Daughter in Trouble off of Mexico

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I doubt it is one 90% of cruisers would make unless the boat was completely disabled, which this one apparently wasn't.
If it was my kid, and I had a wife and daughter that were going to take care of the medical side, I would not have given it a thought. I would have scuttled and been there with them in support.

I guess most cruisers according to your theory are nothing but selfish AH's who don't stand up. You know, after reading some of these posts, you're right.
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Old 12-04-2014, 09:15   #1347
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Re: Forum Member's Boat and Daughter in Trouble off of Mexico

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....until you have been in a situation requiring rescue, and sat in their shoes, you likely cannot understand what is going on in their heads.
True. Once you've seen death before you, beckoning (for any reason), you have an entirely different perspective. Small minded people who only want to pick fights are revealed as sad and pathetic, while those that watch without judgment are clearly rocks of refuge in a difficult world. Situations are just situations - some more difficult, but not imbued with deeper meaning or blame or even back-patting.

Eric and Charlotte have just gone through the last stage of "growing up", one that few people get to these days. Their blogs, their words may still sound the same, but I'm fairly certain the the meanings behind them will be quite different
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Old 12-04-2014, 09:22   #1348
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Re: Forum Member's Boat and Daughter in Trouble off of Mexico

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I didn't come here for a group hug. If we can't learn something from this experience then what's the point?

About 500 posts ago I suggested that likely there was an instigating incident after which everything that happened was pretty well inevitable. Its clear to me that instigating incident was putting to sea with a woman who didn't really want to be there. After that point what happened was pretty predictable.

And I don't put a whole lot of stock in the immediate opinions of four adrenaline junkies. I have the utmost respect and admiration for anyone who would jump out of a perfectly good airplane into a big cold ocean to save these people. But having jumped and lived with the family is it really surprising that those guys thought their efforts were essential?

I'll go so far as to make a prediction - this couple never goes offshore again. Maybe they don't get another boat either but if they do, they stay within sight of land.
Hard to say. Very sad they lost their boat, but as noted, Eric wasn't forced into that decision either by the condition of the boat or external need. His preference was to abandon ship and once abandoned, the vessel had to be scuttled, and I have no doubt the reason will be because he did not want to be away from his family while he sailed her home over the next week or so.

Disasters frequently, or maybe inevitably, involve cascading failure. Learning from disasters is learning how the causal chain that occurred could have been broken with the disaster avoided so that others can avoid a similar fate. Like you said, if you can avoid having the first link in the chain forged, you can certainly improve your odds. If this isn't the forum to discuss such details in a sober way without people's motives being questioned, someone needs to come up with another forum.
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Old 12-04-2014, 09:26   #1349
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Re: Forum Member's Boat and Daughter in Trouble off of Mexico

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I've been thinking this for a while myself. It's served its purpose.

Why would it need to be closed down ? We're chatting on a Internet forum and as long as no ones screaming about politics it's a go .

If you feel like your done with what you have to offer, than by all means bow out now. No reason for us to close up shop, the nets open 24-7. I am enjoying what most of the posters have to say.
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Old 12-04-2014, 09:29   #1350
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Re: Forum Member's Boat and Daughter in Trouble off of Mexico

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It's been an interesting read!

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Well Eric...All I can say is you must have insomnia and really bored without any reading material to plow through this horse stall.
I was about to comment (until I saw your post) that if I was the one that went through what you and your family just did, I might pass on this mess of a thread. I'm glad you're back. Sent you an email but I suppose you are inundated with emails as of recent. When you get time, lets catch up.
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