Licenses for Americans sailing in Europe

[Scot McPherson]

in answer to the many comments about the ASA IPC:


The IPC is the ASA equivalency certificate in answer to the ICC. It's not an ICC nor is it represented as one. ASA took the time to call around and get concurrence from the UN Resolution 40 signing countries and asked them to honor it as equivalent education. Most of the countries did, some did not. There is no official reciprocation, it is a courtesy reciprocation only. It is also NOT guaranteed to be sufficient in every Res 40 country, it is only _probably_ sufficient. A lot will depend on your attitude since it may or may not be honored as a courtesy.


You will not find the ICC on ASA's website anywhere because they cannot offer you one. Only countries that signed UN res 40 offer them and you can only get them from those countries.

[Island Time O25]

I believe this discussion of personal experiences and/or applicable laws would be more productive if we could differentiate between the various situations where an operator's license may be required. For example - chartering vs sailing one's own boat, sailing one's own boat for pleasure vs. commercially (i.e. taking on paying customers not classified as "crew"), sailing one's own boat for pleasure vs. sailing someone else's private boat (i.e. deliveries, etc). Perhaps the rules vary significantly between these types of skippering and thus "personal experience" in one mode may not be applicable to other modes.

Actually since the United States as a conglomeration of originally independent colonies and later states was the initial EU-like experiment in governance it is interesting to note that the concept of comity still alive and well. Under this concept a state must recognize the acts of the other states (marriages, divorces, automobile registration/ownership/use requirements, etc) even if in that state the act would not be legal.

New Hampshire as far as I know still has no compulsory automobile insurance but the neighboring Massachusetts was the pioneer of the concept back when. But NH drivers are still allowed on our MA roads even without the insurance as long as they remain here no longer than 30 days per visit and the visits are occasional and NH residency is not specifically claimed to avoid getting such insurance. Similarly the vehicles form states which do not require inspection stickers or emissions tests still have to be allowed to pass through the states that do.

Perhaps EU could learn a thing or two about this concept as it worked well for the past 240 or so years (with only one but very significant interruption in the 1860s).

[K_V_B]

Originally Posted by Prairie Chicken

I have to believe there is an international marine organization, something comparable to aviation's ICAO. ICAO signatories respect the registration of other signatories aircraft, and the licences of their flight crews. They also standardize regulations to a great extent.

When it comes to the air the principle that countries can enforce their own laws in their own airspace does however apply. I can give you several examples.

[Barra]

This question seems to come up every now and again and always gets the mix of responses from "you need an ICC or your screwed" through to you only need the requirements of your boats flag.

5 years in the med with an Aussie flag and no ICC and no problems. Occasionally got asked for a qualification (montenegro, croatia eg) my response that I only have Australian boating licence has always been accepted.

Too many knickers in twists on this topic.

[svlamorocha]

Originally Posted by Barra

you only need the requirements of your boats flag.

Most of the time, but not all of the time you will do well using that "rule of thumb" until someone asks for a certificate of insurance in local language, or any sort of skipper's license.

Yes, you can drive for 5 years in Europe on the right side until you take the ferry to the UK and things get weird...

[svlamorocha]

Originally Posted by Barra

This question seems to come up every now and again and always gets the mix of responses from "you need an ICC or your screwed" through to you only need the requirements of your boats flag.

5 years in the med with an Aussie flag and no ICC and no problems. Occasionally got asked for a qualification (montenegro, croatia eg) my response that I only have Australian boating licence has always been accepted.

Too many knickers in twists on this topic.

A other story is that in many places the ICC is "one more" license that they will recognize, eg Croatia has a long list of papers they will accept.

The big fuss for Americans (and Brits) is that many of them do not have a license issued by their country.

[Bean Counter]

Check your insurance policy too, good chance there is an exclusion if the operator does not have appropriate license from the flag state and/or the country the boat is in. Also check for exclusion for boat not complying with flag state safety laws AND country safety laws where boat is located. That is why we fitted a US style propane safety shutoff valve when we visited the USA, the EU boat did not have one. (We would have fitted one anyway in due course as it is a sensible thing to have)

[valhalla360]

ASA certificates and Charter operations operate in a gray area:
- ASA never actually says ICC. They use similar words to imply it but are very careful not to say it. For an official who just wants to check the box, it gives them an excuse to move on but a statement that your home country doesn't require an ICC is going to be almost as good.
- Charter operations typically have relation with the local officials and will get the local tourist boards to come down on the officials if they bother tourists bringing money into the local economy.

[Barra]

Originally Posted by svlamorocha

A other story is that in many places the ICC is "one more" license that they will recognize, eg Croatia has a long list of papers they will accept.

The big fuss for Americans (and Brits) is that many of them do not have a license issued by their country.

Neither does Australia. Some states have a boat licence but its not a piece of paper - just a link on your drivers licence so you can have it but unless you are that states water police you cant see it. ie all in all outside of Australia I cannot prove I have a boating licence.

But I do. And simply explaining that has always been sufficient even in Croatia. In the end they just want to sight a piece of paper and tick a box so we both agreed my PADI licence would do!

It really isnt the big deal some are making out.

[Epicurean]

I would like to thank everyone who (tried to) answered my question. The one rule I have concluded after digesting all is that there is no one rule. It’s a lottery. But it was very informative to hear the individual experiences, even if, at times, they were contradictory. And I love all the names people use here.

One other question I have along these lines, although it may require a separate post is: Can foreign flagged vessels cruising Europe avoid import duty on parcels arriving marked “Yacht in transit”? The cost can be around 43% in Portugal considering import duty and vat.

[Scot McPherson]

that's an entirely different topic, post it separately.


thanks

[boatman61]

Back in the 80's I sailed around the UK without a certificate of competence without any need for one.. however when I enquired about sailing over the Channel I was advised to get at a minimum my International Helmsmans Certificate (ICC is the devalued replacement) as.. and I quote.. 'The French don't like us'..
In 30yrs of sailing foreign waters I've been asked for proof of competence 5 times.. 3 in France, once in Spain (for my Spanish Marine Blue Book) and once in Greece (Kharis).
Don't keep referring to them as Licence's.. they are not..
The RYA Commercial Certificates are licences..
Pleasure boating is solely a Certificate of Competence.

[Cavalier]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Back in the 80's I sailed around the UK without a certificate of competence without any need for one..

Back in the 00s I used to sail around Norway without any competence whatsoever! I did, however, hold a certificate of competence...

Sent from mTalk

[surf_sail]

Thanks for sharing real life info on this topic. It's clear that experience will vary when sailing in the Med.

I was considering to get an ICC just to avoid any hassle, but this video by nauticed - specifically the part at the end about "hanging the ICC on your wall and telling your friends how you're licensed to sail anywhere in the world" made me vomit and decide I'd rather find a new port than acquiesce to a bunch of European bureaucrats.

[surf_sail]

Originally Posted by surf_sail

Thanks for sharing real life info on this topic. It's clear that experience will vary when sailing in the Med.

I was considering to get an ICC just to avoid any hassle, but this video by nauticed - specifically the part at the end about "hanging the ICC on your wall and telling your friends how you're licensed to sail anywhere in the world" made me vomit and decide I'd rather find a new port than acquiesce to a bunch of European bureaucrats.

https://youtu.be/SAwcv7bdZOg

Forgot to post.