Licenses for Americans sailing in Europe

[twelve]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Well, you can do your own googling and find a location convenient to you. A good place to start is the RYA's website, which has a "Find and RYA Training Centre" page: Directory | Where's My Nearest | RYA


Just as one example, these guys:

How to gain the ICC, International Certificate of Competence | Sailing Blog by NauticEd

Do it for $400 in one day, and travel around the U.S. giving the one day assessment exams.

There are a lot of different sailing schools in a lot of different places, which can fix you up. This one, for example, does it in Greece: All About the ICC


Note also that if you have an RYA Day Skipper qualification, this translates automatically into an ICC. Just apply and you get the ICC without any exam.

For those who are interested but haven’t yet looked, internet searching will not readily lead to a path for an experienced sailor to easily and economically obtain an ICC. There are plenty of “accredited” (RYA and IYT for example) schools that can issue certificates leading to that other certificate (an ICC), but specifically, I haven’t found one in Germany, Denmark, Sweden, or Norway that will do so without first taking their time consuming and expensive “sailing course.”

Many internet searches produce “water, water everywhere, but not a drop to drink.” Sometimes this site can be helpful in cutting through the clutter, sometimes not.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by twelve

For those who are interested but haven’t yet looked, internet searching will not readily lead to a path for an experienced sailor to easily and economically obtain an ICC. There are plenty of “accredited” (RYA and IYT for example) schools that can issue certificates leading to that other certificate (an ICC), but specifically, I haven’t found one in Germany, Denmark, Sweden, or Norway that will do so without first taking their time consuming and expensive “sailing course.”

Many internet searches produce “water, water everywhere, but not a drop to drink.” Sometimes this site can be helpful in cutting through the clutter, sometimes not.

That's because the RYA can't issue ICC's to Germans and citizens of other countries which have adopted Article 40, so there is limited demand in some countries. But some of those sailing schools will issue ICC's to Americans -- you just have to call around and find out, if no one pipes up with some actual experience.

In the worst case, a cheap RyanAir flight to the UK will solve the problem. Even with flights and so forth, the total cost will still be in the hundreds.


Alternatively, the RYA Day Skipper course, offered everywhere, is hardly a waste of time even for pretty experienced sailors. I think it only costs a grand or so.

[De.windhoos]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

That's because the RYA can't issue ICC's to Germans and citizens of other countries which have adopted Article 40, so there is limited demand in some countries..

Except for the Netherlands. There is an official agreement that Dutch people can get their ICC via the RYA, although the Netherlands is a signatory.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by De.windhoos

Except for the Netherlands. There is an official agreement that Dutch people can get their ICC via the RYA, although the Netherlands is a signatory.

Cool! Then Holland will probably be a good place to get the ICC.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by Barra

This is misleading. The link you give is for qualification required for foreign skippers with Croatia flagged boat. Ie a charter boat basically. The op has their own boat and so need to comply wirh that flags requirements.

No that is not misleading and does not apply only to boats with a Croatian flag. if you had read my post and the link I posted about a sailor that sails a boat with no Croatian flag you would have seen that he is warning sailors about the need of having at least an ICC while sailing their own boats in Croatia. Not about charter boats at all. Some quotes of that warning:

"After clearing out from Italy at Grado (just north of Venice), we hopped across the northern end of the Adriatic Sea, arriving at Umag, Croatia, on our 36-foot, U.S.-flagged sailboat in mid-August 2015.....

As we attempted to clear in by showing the usual paperwork -- U.S. passports, Certificate of Documentation for the boat, and proof of liability insurance -- I was asked to show a Certificate of Competence. My husband and I have been sailing in Mediterranean waters for most of the past five years and had never before been required to present such a certificate.

I argued, but to no avail, that I wasn’t required to have an International Certificate of Competence since the U.S. doesn’t issue such certifications.

Nevertheless, the port authorities insisted that we couldn’t sail in Croatian waters without some type of certification. It turns out there’s a list of about a dozen U.S. certifications that Croatia recognizes, all issued by the American Sailing Association or the U.S. Sailing Association, none of which I had.

But the Croatian government was prepared for just such an eventuality. For a fee, I could take an exam that would yield a Croatian “boat driver’s license.”

An organization named Sunny Way Exams for boat license – Sunny Way handles the exam process, including providing a 55-page study guide (available in English, German, Italian and Croatian). They also offer an optional 3-hour class on the evening before the exam, which is administered in certain port cities on Saturdays.

I ended up taking the class and the exam (in English) with one other American in the coastal town of Porec, about 40 miles south of Umag, which I got to by bus since we weren’t allowed to sail our boat there.

On Saturday morning, we arrived at the Harbormaster’s office where the exam was being held, and were surprised to see dozens of people waiting to be tested.

Two people at a time were admitted to the office for testing, so the other American and I were called in together. We were seated at a table across from two gentlemen with a Croatian chart spread out on the table between us. .."

And this happens not only in Croatia, I mean a boat owner unable to sail away with his boat because the authorities found out he had not a license in a country where it is needed a license or at least a ICC to sail a boat. On the beginning of a thread a member tells about a similar story in Spain.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by K_V_B

Does this vary from state to state in Australia? Because when I rented a yacht in Sydney (NSW) three years ago they weren't the slightest bit interested in whatever papers I had. They were willing to just believe me when I told them I know how to sail a boat...

Yes, like in US it varies from state to state. I believe that in some no license is required. Anyway this is just beginning in Australia and US. In all countries, for many years, a license was not needed for driving a car or to fly an airplane.

In Europe we have very different situations: Countries where a license is (not yet) needed, others where licenses are very simple and others where licenses are much more demanding and vary with the place you will sail the boat (several grade licenses).

For what I understand some efforts are being made in EU to have some common ground regarding what is demanded in what regards boat licenses.

[Barra]

I think the guys that get excited about needing an ICC for a foreign flagged boat in Europe are guilty of that good old self fullfilling prophecy scenario -

ie if you get asked for a qualification and you provide the ICC which gets a tick you therefore assume that you need an ICC to get that tick. Fair enough.

On the other hand those without the ICC because their vessels flag does not require it are able to satisfy the official in other ways so they assume they can continue on without it and still get that tick in the box from the official. Also fair enough.

Sounds like the guy in croatia got a bad official (maybe connected to the training school down the road somehow, friend or relative etc???). Those croatians are the most entrepeurial ive come across in the med! He should have stuck to his guns as he was within his rights or set off for the next port of entry where a more understanding/ less conflicted official would be met.

[Barra]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I guess the answer to that question is --

"Do you feel lucky"?


You talk about "giving into this mess" -- I don't really know what this means. Sail into a nation's waters, and you are subject to their laws. Does "not giving into this mess" mean arguing with the officials of some foreign country, about their own laws? Good luck with that. Your call of course, but I'd rather pay the 210 pounds and spend my time cruising and enjoying life, rather than running the risk of having to try to educate some Greek officials about their own laws.

I take "giving into this mess" as not succumbing to the jumping through of hoops to get a bit of paper when you are already clearly a competent skipper eg have sailed an ocean to get to said med country. In many instances it seems experienced skippers are being asked to get a rubber stamp from an instructor with far less experience than they have.

By all means if you need the training get it but officials have always been satisfied in other ways in my experience here.


Followed the noonsite links you gave dockhead but didnt see anything that actually shows a definitive black and white answer still. eg the greek page says you need the ICC, yet I have never been asked to provide it including southern greece in multiple ports of entry. It does also say you are prohibited from anchoring within 500m of land too so....

[pathlesschosen]

Polux. What was the cost of the ICC "Exam" in Croatia? Thanks.

[Barra]

from the noonsite account - $325 for 10 minutes -

I ended up taking the class and the exam (in English) with one other American in the coastal town of Porec, about 40 miles south of Umag, which I got to by bus since we weren’t allowed to sail our boat there. On Saturday morning, we arrived at the Harbormaster’s office where the exam was being held, and were surprised to see dozens of people waiting to be tested. Two people at a time were admitted to the office for testing, so the other American and I were called in together. We were seated at a table across from two gentlemen with a Croatian chart spread out on the table between us. The Harbormaster asked each of us a number of questions (about potentially dangerous Adriatic winds, reading a chart, phonetic alphabet, etc.) and after less than ten minutes said, “Congratulations, your boat driver licenses will be ready for pickup in about half an hour.”

Judging by the large number of Europeans waiting for the test on Saturday morning and the fact that I paid about $325 for the class and the exam, it appears that Croatia has turned the issuance of boating licenses into quite a profitable mini-industry. We were told that Croatia requires a boating license even to rent a jetski legally!

[Nordboen]

During the debate, I contacted Norway, and got this response from the DMA

Hei Peter,
Takk for your inquiry, which is kopiert bottom.
It is flagged on Båten which applies in. In Norway we regulate fritidsbåter in Norwegian farvann under Norwegian flagg.
Good trip!

So you can safely sail in Scandinavia without else it required his homeland


Reguest to Norway:
I have a question, since I'm about to buy a boat, registered in the UK boat is over 15 meters but less than 24 I have to sail the UK and further out into the world without any special certificates. (I am
Danish and proficiency) But now the question is, is it the UK flag followed and the rules that come with, or is it the Norwegian rules to be followed. Personally, I believe that it is the flag
the boat is registered under applicable but to be sure. so my question I have sailed my whole life and is now retired, only to tell that I am experienced sailor and former fishing in the North Sea

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Barra

. . . Followed the noonsite links you gave dockhead but didnt see anything that actually shows a definitive black and white answer still. eg the greek page says you need the ICC, yet I have never been asked to provide it including southern greece in multiple ports of entry. It does also say you are prohibited from anchoring within 500m of land too so....

Like I said, do you feel lucky?

It's forbidden to possess cocaine in the UK, yet no official in the UK has ever checked to see if I have any, or even asked me whether I have any. Therefore, according to this logic -- "I've never been asked for a license, therefore I don't need one" -- it's perfectly legal, right? Or maybe a more realistic example: In dozens of Channel crossings, I have never once been asked for a passport when entering Cherbourg. Does that mean that I don't need a passport to enter Schengen from the UK?

Let's be clear -- you have no right to sail in Greek waters, without the documents the Greeks themselves decide you need. Nor do you have any right to anchor somewhere, where the Greeks have decided themselves to prohibit it. If they tolerate your doing it differently -- well, good for you. But good luck with "sticking to your rights", in case you one day encounter an official who decides to be a stickler. You don't have any "rights", in this case. It's their country, and their laws, and they will enforce them, or not enforce them, the way they like.

And by the way, petty officials in poor countries love to stick it to tourists "sticking to" their non-existent rights and arguing with them about their own laws. It's practically a sport, and it never turns out well for the tourist.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by Barra

...
Sounds like the guy in croatia got a bad official (maybe connected to the training school down the road somehow, friend or relative etc???). Those croatians are the most entrepeurial ive come across in the med! He should have stuck to his guns as he was within his rights or set off for the next port of entry where a more understanding/ less conflicted official would be met.

Very strange kind of thought, at least for an European.

So the guys in Croatia are nice enough to provide you with a way out if you are illegally sailing in their waters without a licence, providing you with a quick course and with allowing you to take a way out and you kind of insult them?

Of course they do that, I mean they are nice because they are interested that all people sail there (in a legally way) due to the importance of their nautical tourism.

you would not have that luck in Spain or Portugal and in other countries where your boat would be taken by the Coast Guard and only released when someone with a proper licence appeared to sail it out of territorial waters....and you would have a very salty fine to pay too. That situation was already described on this thread, experienced by someone:

Originally Posted by boatman61

... witnessed by me in Portimao a few years back.. a young Irish couple had gone for a sailing honeymoon on their Cat .... Harbour Master got pissy.....The result was the boat could not leave port till the owner could get a 'qualified' skipper to command the boat..

You are wrong regarding saying that someone caught by the authorities sailing a boat without a licence (or an accepted certificate), on a country where one is needed to sail, has the right to sail away to another port on the some country or even sail out of the country.

No, the boat will stay there stopped by the authorities till you can provide a Captain with a proper licence to sail it from there...and normally you will be finned.

The situation is not very different regarding if someone is caught in US or Austraila driving a car without a licence. Off course, as with a car, you can get away with it for years, if you are lucky, but you are sailing illegally on the countries that demand a licence for sailing and if you are caught you should know that there will be consequences, that will be different from country to country.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by pathlesschosen

Polux. What was the cost of the ICC "Exam" in Croatia? Thanks.

It is not an ICC but a kind of some Croatian basic licence.
Exams for boat license – Sunny Way

Actually as you can see by the list I have already posted regarding the licences and certificates accepted in Croatia that ASA and RYA certifications are accepted too and that is also the case with other countries. On the countries where a ICC is hard to get you can have ASA or RYA certifications and RYA certifications can be obtained almost everywhere.

Here is the list again:
http://www.mppi.hr/UserDocsImages/TA...2023-11_15.pdf

In countries like Spain or Portugal where licences are needed for more than 30 years and where those licences, a bit like RYA and ASA certificates, are different ones, allowing for sailing in different locations and different competences, what the law say is that you will have to have a licence that attests the same compete as the ones required by the National licence that will be needed for doing what you are doing, in what regards sailing.

Theoretically an ICC would not be allowed as well as a basic RYA or ASA course but only if you manage to piss seriously the authorities they will make a point about that (even if they can). Normally they will accept even a ICC and that has no legal value in Portugal or Spain since those countries (like US) do not recognize ICC.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Polux

It is not an ICC but a kind of some Croatian basic licence.
Exams for boat license – Sunny Way

Actually as you can see by the list I have already posted regarding the licences and certificates accepted in Croatia that ASA and RYA certifications are accepted too and that is also the case with other countries. On the countries where a ICC is hard to get you can have ASA or RYA certifications and RYA certifications can be obtained almost everywhere.

Here is the list again:
http://www.mppi.hr/UserDocsImages/TA...2023-11_15.pdf

In countries like Spain or Portugal where licences are needed for more than 30 years and where those licences, a bit like RYA and ASA certificates, are different ones, allowing for sailing in different locations and different competences, what the law say is that you will have to have a licence that attests the same compete as the ones required by the National licence that will be needed for doing what you are doing, in what regards sailing.

Theoretically an ICC would not be allowed as well as a basic RYA or ASA course but only if you manage to piss seriously the authorities they will make a point about that (even if they can). Normally they will accept even a ICC and that has no legal value in Portugal or Spain since those countries (like US) do not recognize ICC.

I am guessing, but I would bet dollars to doughnuts (as we say), that the Spanish officially accept the ICC for skippers of foreign flag vessels. You don't have to be a party to that treaty, to have your own rule that such a qualification is acceptable, and I bet they have such a rule.

Here is an interesting list of the requirements of different countries, by the RYA:

Acceptance of the ICC | The ICC and Evidence of Competence Abroad | Boating Abroad | Knowledge & Advice | Knowledge & Advice | RYA