Cruisers Forum
 


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 15-04-2017, 21:57   #91
Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 5
Re: Licenses for Americans sailing in Europe

OK my thoughts here are this. I am not heavily experienced and versed in international sailing but I know a fair amount about paperwork and residency and legality etc. First of all It's nautical and naval and ocean and boating, not the FAA or other international equivalent..ie you MUST have a pilots license to be in the air period..this is the water and where many things differ internationally, there is much overlap where we come in and out of international waters.
Yes local jurisdictions have every authority to impose or do what they like within certain bounds or on certain basis, but I'm gonna agree with just about everyone on here in part except for the guy saying it's like not needing a driver's license..cause it's not really a relevant comparison and not feeding support worry or concern towards the authors question and say, learn your knowledge of off shore and coastal cruising ASA standards and then begin to learn more about the areas you want to go and know your seamanship and stop worrying like it's a flying vessel, it's a boat, so here is where I agree in part with the gist of where they guy saying I just sailed across the ocean , I don't need no stinking License! Not entirely but pretty much yes, provided that:
You know your own off shore navigation and shipping lane , harbor rules of the road etc..know how to read buoy systems etc and some ability to interpret slightly different ones in foreign waters or clear research on fully knowing them,
yes suss out any local details ahead what you can ahead of time. EXAMPLE, I have an interest to pull into harbors in Ireland and specifically around Dublin, I made a research folder in my browser with pdf files from NOTICE TO MARINERS 2017....Recreational Boaters...etc...get the protocol down for calling in ahead VHF for permissions etc and then just go...Navy y`all not the airforce. Checked further into rates and rules of state and club harbors etc.,.
Yes likely an ICC can help avert issues but doubtful you have to have it or in the least a clear packet of your ASAP barefoot and coastal cruising completion and make sure you have your safety details in your boat up to Coasty standards and don't show yourself to be a danger and beyond that be aware of firearms declaration issues and your own personal residency issues and get back on board McHales Navy and don't worry about the license and don't fake one Either! Have your own documentation together, pay attention and don't be a douche canoe 🎻😂
Indiana Joness is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-04-2017, 04:26   #92
Registered User
 
Polux's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Portugal/Med
Boat: Comet 41s
Posts: 6,140
Re: Licenses for Americans sailing in Europe

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post
The very first thing you'll be asked when you check into Montengro "can I please see your ICC boating license?" Then you'll be asked for your boat documents including insurance. If you don't have these, your boat won't be going anywhere soon.
Not only in Montenegro but also in Croatia and in many other European countries.

In Italy the coast guard always ask for my license. Even on marinas they ask for that and take also photocopies of the papers.

After so many contradictory answers on this thread I believe that the best answers can be find outside this forum. For instance a sensible answer on an Australian site:

"Can I use an Australian boat licence in overseas in the waters of another Country?
It largely depends on the countries to which you are heading - or intend boating in. It is best to check directly with Maritime Authorities of each intended country of passage - well in advance."
http://www.yachtandboat.com.au/resources/boat-licenses

And an Australian state government information regarding the boat licenses that are needed for a foreign boat to sail there:

Overseas marine licenses for visitors:
When you visit Queensland from another country, you may be able to use your overseas marine licence if it is a current recognised overseas licence (PDF, 618KB).
If your recognised overseas marine licence is not in English, you will need a translation from an accredited National Accreditation Authority for Translators and Interpreters translator and must keep this with your licence.
If your overseas marine licence is not recognised, you will need to contact an approved BoatSafe training provider to assess recognition of prior learning and then apply for your marine licence.

https://www.qld.gov.au/transport/boa.../recreational/

Probably the best information, out of asking directly to the relevant authorities in each country is given by Noonsite:

"3) What certification skippers are expected to have by some countries, although not required by their home country....
Many officials in European countries expect to see some type of certificate of sailing competence even though the skipper's flag state does not require them to have one. Many charter companies will also require one. For Europe, it is particularly useful to have a European International Certificate of Competence (ICC).
What is "Proof of Competency" and What Does it Cover?

The International Certificate of Competency (ICC) is a set of standards drawn up by a committee of The United Nations Economic Commission for Europe (Resolution 40). It is designed to be recognised throughout Europe and has various categories covering sail boats, power boats (up to 10m or up to 24m), inland and coastal waters."

It is worth to point out that not all European countries recognize the ICC but probably the authorities of those countries will let it pass, providing you don't stay there with the boat for a long time.

"VHF Certification & Licensing
Most countries require maritime VHF equipment to be registered and many also require at least one person on board to have successfully completed a Radio Operator's Training course."
VHF Certification & Licensing ‚€”
European Union ‚€”

Here you can see what happens if you are lucky and sail without a license or certification on a country that demands one, if they are nice:
Croatia Boat Driver's License: Make sure you have your ICC ‚€”

Off course Craig, you can get away, if you are lucky, sailing on countries that demand a certificate or a license without having one. You only need not to get caught, but you are sailing illegally and the consequences, if you are caught, depend on the country. On Croatia they are nice (see the link above) in Spain not so much:

"Failure to have a license may result in the vessel being confiscated or a hefty fine....
Although a Yacht Masters certificate (and translation into Spanish) or an ICC (International Certificate of Competence) are considered sufficient proof of competence to skipper a UK (or some other) flagged vessel, the ICC is not a recognized qualification for Spanish flagged vessels. Anyone resident in Spain must have a Spanish recognized qualification, the tŪtulo de recreo."

https://www.angloinfo.com/how-to/spain/lifestyle/sports-leisure/sailing-and-boating#sthash.Y6BrEH4o.dpuf

Polux is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-04-2017, 05:38   #93
Registered User
 
Polux's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Portugal/Med
Boat: Comet 41s
Posts: 6,140
Re: Licenses for Americans sailing in Europe

Here you have more information about European countries that demand a license or ICC for private boats and the ones that don't. On all countries that a license is needed for their citizens an equivalent license or a ICC will be needed for foreign yachts to sail there:

I have a problem with some PDF links on my PC so you would have to put this on google and chose the first link:

140213 Update on boat license ICC v3MC.pdf

Then each of those countries that demand a license to sail on their waters will have a list of the accepted licenses or ICC that will allow for foreign skippers to sail on their waters. Here is the one for Croatia:
http://www.mppi.hr/UserDocsImages/TA...2023-11_15.pdf

As I said even if the ICC is not formally accepted by all, with an ICC you will not have probably problems...at least for the time being.
Polux is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-04-2017, 00:50   #94
cruiser

Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Probably in an anchorage or a boatyard..
Boat: Ebbtide 33' steel cutter
Posts: 5,031
Re: Licenses for Americans sailing in Europe

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polux View Post
On all countries that a license is needed for their citizens an equivalent license or a ICC will be needed for foreign yachts to sail there:


140213 Update on boat license ICC v3MC.pdf
Which just goes to show what a mess it is, Spain, Portugal and Greece are noted as not accepting ICC and there are plenty of documented cases where some sort of document has been asked for and the ICC accepted.
conachair is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-04-2017, 01:21   #95
Registered User
 
Barra's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Western Australia
Boat: between boats
Posts: 1,052
Re: Licenses for Americans sailing in Europe

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polux View Post
Here you have more information about European countries that demand a license or ICC for private boats and the ones that don't. On all countries that a license is needed for their citizens an equivalent license or a ICC will be needed for foreign yachts to sail there:

I have a problem with some PDF links on my PC so you would have to put this on google and chose the first link:

140213 Update on boat license ICC v3MC.pdf

Then each of those countries that demand a license to sail on their waters will have a list of the accepted licenses or ICC that will allow for foreign skippers to sail on their waters. Here is the one for Croatia:
http://www.mppi.hr/UserDocsImages/TA...2023-11_15.pdf

As I said even if the ICC is not formally accepted by all, with an ICC you will not have probably problems...at least for the time being.
This is misleading. The link you give is for qualification required for foreign skippers with Croatia flagged boat. Ie a charter boat basically. The op has their own boat and so need to comply wirh that flags requirements.

This kind of confusion is why so many knickers are in wads on this topic. 5 years on in the med and nothing has changed

Still it's a nice little earner for the training centers I suppose. Loved that video link so funny.��

$350 to take the online test then who knows what for the 5 day practical...
Barra is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-04-2017, 01:52   #96
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Alcochete Portugal
Boat: Mumby 48
Posts: 219
Re: Licenses for Americans sailing in Europe

I was quoted Ä660 for a course leading to an ICC in Portugal, which I don't think is unreasonable. It's live aboard for 5 days. I have to make sure I want to sail in Europe first. My objection is the waste of time since there are other things I'd prefer to do with that time (build a chart plotter, become proficient with GRIB and Opencpn).

It seems ludicrous to me to ask an American or European entering Australian waters after sailing half-way around the world for proof of competence. But if we only went to places that made sense as we see it we'd never go anywhere. And even at home the rules often don't make sense.

Anyway, I appreciate those who responded, whether citing legalities or actualities.
Epicurean is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-04-2017, 02:59   #97
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Denmark (Winter), Helsinki (Summer); Cruising the Baltic Sea this year!
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 31,086
Re: Licenses for Americans sailing in Europe

Quote:
Originally Posted by Barra View Post
This is misleading. The link you give is for qualification required for foreign skippers with Croatia flagged boat. Ie a charter boat basically.

Qualifications required for sailing a vessel under your own flag and under the flag of the coastal state may naturally be different, so this is a valid comment.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Barra View Post
The op has their own boat and so need to comply wirh that flags requirements.. . .
However it is not indeed true, that complying with your own flag state's requirements, is always enough. There have been plenty of citations further up in the thread. Sometimes it is enough, but not everywhere.


Just one small example:

"Even though it may not be required by the cruiser's flag state, Croatian officials still expect to see a certificate of sailing competency.
Read this American's Experience for further details."


http://www.noonsite.com/Countries/Cr...rc=Formalities


Experience of an American sailing an American flagged boat in Croatian waters:

http://www.noonsite.com/Countries/Cr...have-your-icc/


Greece:

"The skipper must have an International Certificate of Competence (ICC). Cruisers have reported that Greek authorities (especially in the south) were asking for the ICC."

http://www.noonsite.com/Countries/Gr...ties#Documents

They don't care what your flag state requirements are.


Portugal:

"Yachts must carry their original registration document, insurance policy and ship's radio licence. One member of the crew must have a radio operator’s certificate. The skipper must also have a certificate of competance and all crew members a passport."


http://www.noonsite.com/Countries/Po...ties#Documents


I could go on. For sailing in the Med, you really need an ICC.


Northern Europe is different. In Northern Europe cultural attitudes towards sailing are different -- there sailing seems to be considered more a God-given right not subject to much regulation. Qualifications are mostly not required in general, and flag state rules are respected. Even registration of boats is not required in many Northern European countries (including the UK).
Dockhead is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 17-04-2017, 05:30   #98
Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Annapolis, MD
Boat: Sabre 34-1 (sold) and Saga 43
Posts: 601
Re: Licenses for Americans sailing in Europe

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post

Evidence of Competence Abroad | The ICC and Evidence of Competence Abroad | Boating Abroad | Knowledge & Advice | Knowledge & Advice | RYA

Get the ICC. It's simple and inexpensive, and prevents any possible hassle over certificates of competence.

How hard is it to get the ICC?
Dockhead, your post is highly informative. Very interesting reading, especially following the link to the RYA. You chaps do it much better than we do! Here in the US, it's a real pain the neck, and very expensive. The only way to get it is through one of two private companies, and you have to take courses. It's about a week on the water (live aboard), and about $5,000 (conversationally speaking, a USD is about equal to a GBP). I could be off a bit, as I haven't looked at it in a year or two, but it's VERY hard to get. Not technically challenging, but rather logistically and financially challenging. And once you get it, it's only good for two years and then you have to "renew" it for about $100 (you have to join their "membership" and then pay to renew it). The most frustrating thing is that they advertise that they can take a "newbie to ICC" in about a week. Like, really, you can teach a beginner much at all in that length of time? There is no one-day competency check, where an experienced, seasoned sailor can get it for a few hundred dollars.

The other thing I've learned through this thread is an error in my understanding. I thought it was required for chartering ONLY -- but it seems that it is required for sailing your own boat. That's a big misunderstanding on my part.

Curious about how that applies. Here in the US, a guest cannot drive your boat with you standing right beside them, unless they have a "boater safety card." It's not a skipper requirement, it's an operator requirement, and operator appears to mean "the person steering." How does it apply overseas? Does each person who takes a turn at the helm need it, or only the master?

Harry
sailingharry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-04-2017, 05:52   #99
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Denmark (Winter), Helsinki (Summer); Cruising the Baltic Sea this year!
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 31,086
Re: Licenses for Americans sailing in Europe

Quote:
Originally Posted by sailingharry View Post
Dockhead, your post is highly informative. Very interesting reading, especially following the link to the RYA. You chaps do it much better than we do! Here in the US, it's a real pain the neck, and very expensive. The only way to get it is through one of two private companies, and you have to take courses. It's about a week on the water (live aboard), and about $5,000 (conversationally speaking, a USD is about equal to a GBP). I could be off a bit, as I haven't looked at it in a year or two, but it's VERY hard to get. Not technically challenging, but rather logistically and financially challenging. And once you get it, it's only good for two years and then you have to "renew" it for about $100 (you have to join their "membership" and then pay to renew it). The most frustrating thing is that they advertise that they can take a "newbie to ICC" in about a week. Like, really, you can teach a beginner much at all in that length of time? There is no one-day competency check, where an experienced, seasoned sailor can get it for a few hundred dollars.

The other thing I've learned through this thread is an error in my understanding. I thought it was required for chartering ONLY -- but it seems that it is required for sailing your own boat. That's a big misunderstanding on my part.

Curious about how that applies. Here in the US, a guest cannot drive your boat with you standing right beside them, unless they have a "boater safety card." It's not a skipper requirement, it's an operator requirement, and operator appears to mean "the person steering." How does it apply overseas? Does each person who takes a turn at the helm need it, or only the master?

Harry
Taking last things first:

1. Where a qualification is required, only the skipper needs it, in all of the countries I know about.

2. The RYA will issue ICC's to Americans (as of a couple of years ago). You can do this in various places around the world. You can find out more on the RYA website.

3. The ICC is a very basic certificate of very basic competence, which should not require much or any studying, for a sailor with reasonable experience. You can just turn up and take the test without attending any courses. The cost is only 210 pounds, for example, at the Hamble School of Yachting: https://www.hamble.co.uk/internation...competence-icc

4. If you need or want the course which goes with it, the cost is still only 609 (at Hamble; and maybe less at other places).


So, the ICC is neither difficult nor expensive to get.
Dockhead is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 17-04-2017, 07:19   #100
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Switzerland
Boat: So many boats to choose from. Would prefer something that is not an AWB, and that is beachable...
Posts: 1,310
Re: Licenses for Americans sailing in Europe

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polux View Post
And an Australian state government information regarding the boat licenses that are needed for a foreign boat to sail there:

Overseas marine licenses for visitors:
When you visit Queensland from another country, you may be able to use your overseas marine licence if it is a current recognised overseas licence (PDF, 618KB).
If your recognised overseas marine licence is not in English, you will need a translation from an accredited National Accreditation Authority for Translators and Interpreters translator and must keep this with your licence.
If your overseas marine licence is not recognised, you will need to contact an approved BoatSafe training provider to assess recognition of prior learning and then apply for your marine licence.

https://www.qld.gov.au/transport/boa.../recreational/

Does this vary from state to state in Australia? Because when I rented a yacht in Sydney (NSW) three years ago they weren't the slightest bit interested in whatever papers I had. They were willing to just believe me when I told them I know how to sail a boat...
K_V_B is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-04-2017, 07:34   #101
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 10
Re: Licenses for Americans sailing in Europe

"So, the ICC is neither difficult nor expensive to get." Yes, if you're in England. The Hamble School link is still much appreciated Dockhead. More specifics from those with actual knowledge would be really welcome: Are there any similar facilities that allow a foreigner (American) to obtain an ICC in either Germany, Denmark, Sweden, or Norway without taking a "sailing course"? Thanks in advance to anyone who can help.
twelve is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-04-2017, 07:37   #102
Registered User
 
surf_sail's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 235
Re: Licenses for Americans sailing in Europe

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
Qualifications required for sailing a vessel under your own flag and under the flag of the coastal state may naturally be different, so this is a valid comment.




However it is not indeed true, that complying with your own flag state's requirements, is always enough. There have been plenty of citations further up in the thread. Sometimes it is enough, but not everywhere.


Just one small example:

"Even though it may not be required by the cruiser's flag state, Croatian officials still expect to see a certificate of sailing competency.
Read this American's Experience for further details."


http://www.noonsite.com/Countries/Cr...rc=Formalities


Experience of an American sailing an American flagged boat in Croatian waters:

http://www.noonsite.com/Countries/Cr...have-your-icc/


Greece:

"The skipper must have an International Certificate of Competence (ICC). Cruisers have reported that Greek authorities (especially in the south) were asking for the ICC."

http://www.noonsite.com/Countries/Gr...ties#Documents

They don't care what your flag state requirements are.


Portugal:

"Yachts must carry their original registration document, insurance policy and ship's radio licence. One member of the crew must have a radio operatorís certificate. The skipper must also have a certificate of competance and all crew members a passport."


http://www.noonsite.com/Countries/Po...ties#Documents


I could go on. For sailing in the Med, you really need an ICC.


Northern Europe is different. In Northern Europe cultural attitudes towards sailing are different -- there sailing seems to be considered more a God-given right not subject to much regulation. Qualifications are mostly not required in general, and flag state rules are respected. Even registration of boats is not required in many Northern European countries (including the UK).


When you say for "sailing in the med you really need an ICC". Is this a legal statement or the reality on the ground? Plenty of people have said they've sailed the med for years without any license.

I think we shouldn't give into this mess and extortionist sailing "schools" so easily.
surf_sail is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-04-2017, 08:02   #103
cruiser

Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Probably in an anchorage or a boatyard..
Boat: Ebbtide 33' steel cutter
Posts: 5,031
Re: Licenses for Americans sailing in Europe

Quote:
Originally Posted by surf_sail View Post
When you say for "sailing in the med you really need an ICC". Is this a legal statement or the reality on the ground? Plenty of people have said they've sailed the med for years without any license.

I think we shouldn't give into this mess and extortionist sailing "schools" so easily.
Any legality which might be found buried deep may or may not be known about, reality is reality with plenty of known requests - how do you "not give into this mess"? In a region with dozens of countries who have been bickering with each other and doing thier own thing for centuries.
Easiest is either have some bits of paper to tick any boxes a grumpy port official might ask for or just hope for the best.
Hoping for the best has worked for many, if you don't give in and can radically change the deep-rooted bureaucracy of a load of Mediterranean countries then expect praise from a multitude of cruisers
conachair is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-04-2017, 08:15   #104
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Denmark (Winter), Helsinki (Summer); Cruising the Baltic Sea this year!
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 31,086
Re: Licenses for Americans sailing in Europe

Quote:
Originally Posted by surf_sail View Post
When you say for "sailing in the med you really need an ICC". Is this a legal statement or the reality on the ground? Plenty of people have said they've sailed the med for years without any license.

I think we shouldn't give into this mess and extortionist sailing "schools" so easily.
I guess the answer to that question is --

"Do you feel lucky"?

You can read on Noonsite, and other resources, what the legal requirements are in different countries. Many Med countries formally require some kind of qualification regardless of what your flag state requires. These requirements may or may not be much enforced. So whether you will get away with it, without having any qualification, is a different question -- do you feel lucky?


You talk about "giving into this mess" -- I don't really know what this means. Sail into a nation's waters, and you are subject to their laws. Does "not giving into this mess" mean arguing with the officials of some foreign country, about their own laws? Good luck with that. Your call of course, but I'd rather pay the 210 pounds and spend my time cruising and enjoying life, rather than running the risk of having to try to educate some Greek officials about their own laws.
Dockhead is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 17-04-2017, 08:25   #105
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Denmark (Winter), Helsinki (Summer); Cruising the Baltic Sea this year!
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 31,086
Re: Licenses for Americans sailing in Europe

Quote:
Originally Posted by twelve View Post
"So, the ICC is neither difficult nor expensive to get." Yes, if you're in England. The Hamble School link is still much appreciated Dockhead. More specifics from those with actual knowledge would be really welcome: Are there any similar facilities that allow a foreigner (American) to obtain an ICC in either Germany, Denmark, Sweden, or Norway without taking a "sailing course"? Thanks in advance to anyone who can help.
Well, you can do your own googling and find a location convenient to you. A good place to start is the RYA's website, which has a "Find and RYA Training Centre" page: http://www.rya.org.uk/wheresmyneares....aspx#list/t-2


Just as one example, these guys:

How to gain the ICC, International Certificate of Competence | Sailing Blog by NauticEd

Do it for $400 in one day, and travel around the U.S. giving the one day assessment exams.

There are a lot of different sailing schools in a lot of different places, which can fix you up. This one, for example, does it in Greece: All About the ICC


Note also that if you have an RYA Day Skipper qualification, this translates automatically into an ICC. Just apply and you get the ICC without any exam.
Dockhead is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
Europe, license, rope, sail, sailing

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Full time sailing and fishing licenses SURV69 Liveaboard's Forum 1 23-08-2015 18:07
Ham Radio Reciprocal Licenses in the Bahamas ? Sailingbeagles Atlantic & the Caribbean 6 09-02-2015 19:01
Best Combo of Licenses to Make a Living at Sea? jcmcdowell Training, Licensing & Certification 17 07-03-2009 10:03
Licenses and certifications ... ? j9gillik Training, Licensing & Certification 13 13-05-2008 10:26
Argh! Canada Licenses Amgine Training, Licensing & Certification 8 06-06-2007 14:41

Advertise Here


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 01:36.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.