Greek Tax! - MERGED 4 THREADS

[Alenka]

Chuck,

You are assuming (I think) that the cruising tax replaces the old taxes and charges. There is nothing in the regulation to suggest this. I think you will end up paying your current transit log fee's, etc.,in addition to the new tax!

[chuckr]

Originally Posted by Alenka

Chuck,

You are assuming (I think) that the cruising tax replaces the old taxes and charges. There is nothing in the regulation to suggest this. I think you will end up paying your current transit log fee's, etc.,in addition to the new tax!

Alenka -- i agree - the other poster was the one who may have suggested that -- no i think the greeks are trying to see how flexible the demand curve is

[Palarran]

The new fees do replace the transit log. I posted earlier in this tread the current cost of a transit log so do the math but for Palarran the difference was around 80 euro per year. I'm certainly not going to cry about an extra $100 bill.

Athene, I quickly looked up the new sojourn tax here:
Sojourn tax

This is for 2013. I read it that a boat will pay 600 euro for a 12 to 15 meter boat for 30 days. This is what we paid this year. The link in the cruising wiki won't work for me so maybe you can do the arithmetic for us. Don't miss the extra cost of berthing either. It was costing us 200 to 300 euro for one single night on many of the town quays. Are these fees going away?

Again, I'm sorry if the costs for a full year are too much for you all to handle, but it isn't changing for me at all so I'm fairly happy. If your an EU registered boat, yes you will pay much more than last year, but not if you are foreign flagged.

[Alenka]

Sorry Chuck, It was indeed Parallan that made the assumption

Well structured letter you sent. I think we could all do to send our feelings direct to the Greek Government. I shall be putting my thoughts together and following your lead through the Greek Embassy here in London.

Happy Christmas!

[Alenka]

[QUOTE=Palarran;1422678]The new fees do replace the transit log. I posted earlier in this tread the current cost of a transit log so do the math but for Palarran the difference was around 80 euro per year. I'm certainly not going to cry about an extra $100 bill.

Where does it say in the new tax laws that the old charges will be phased out?

[athene]

Originally Posted by Palarran

Athene, I quickly looked up the new sojourn tax here:
Sojourn tax. This is for 2013. I read it that a boat will pay 600 euro for a 12 to 15 meter boat for 30 days. This is what we paid this year. The link in the cruising wiki won't work for me so maybe you can do the arithmetic for us. Don't miss the extra cost of berthing either. It was costing us 200 to 300 euro for one single night on many of the town quays. Are these fees going away?

You're quite correct in your calculations, but not in the currency. It's HRK 600 (about €79) for 30 days. I don't understand how you paid €600 unless someone took serious advantage of you (or unless you mean in Greece rather than Croatia?). The addition for the new Croatian navigation tax would be around HRK 300 (about €40) for 12 months, depending on engine power. This tax is a lump sum, with no concession for shorter stays.

Berthing costs, IMHO, are a completely separate matter, since you're paying for the facilities provided, not for the privilege of being in the country. I think the average Greek port police harbour charge of €8 - 12 is about right for the average Greek harbour (although there are a few shining exceptions). Equally, some Croatian harbours are indeed way too expensive for the facilities they offer, but at least one doesn't have to patronise them, whereas you can't escape paying the cruising fees.

[athene]

Originally Posted by Alenka

Well structured letter you sent. I think we could all do to send our feelings direct to the Greek Government. I shall be putting my thoughts together and following your lead through the Greek Embassy here in London.

Happy Christmas!

Brett, you could put your views directly to the Minister at info@mvarvitsiotis.gr. I've done so in support of the Cruising Association's own submission. If you want more ammo, my own broadside is at https://www.dropbox.com/s/b2gtt83d9t...%20Dec-13.docx.

Happy Christmas to you and all the Greek taverna owners who must be looking forward to 2014 with a sense of foreboding ...

GORDON

[Barra]

A little salt for you at xmas chuck - you would pay 1300 euros under this new tax as its in whole meters not 1219.

If we believe in free markets (admittedly in europe thats not a given) then the cost of a berth in greece will be about to drop substantially next year as less boats stay or visit so for a non eu flagged boat greece overall may become cheaper as palaran says

Remember its all about the marginal cost of a berth and this tax will move boats make no mistake. Turkey and croatia will become even more expensive and greece berths even cheaper by years end as marinas try to break even.

3 big losers here -

1. Greeks employed in businesses supporting the cruising boats
2. Greek marina owners
3. Eu flagged boats in greece

[hoppy]

Originally Posted by Barra

If we believe in free markets (admittedly in europe thats not a given) then the cost of a berth in greece will be about to drop substantially next year as less boats stay or visit so for a non eu flagged boat greece overall may become cheaper as palaran says

hahahahahahahahahahahahaha

I had my boat at one Greek marina a couple of years ago which was much less than half full over winter and never seem to be full over summer.

To generate more income, they decided to substantially increase the mooring rate. I was already planning to leave to another part of Greece and left just as the new rate was kicking in. When I went to my boat that June, with the exception of the area where the local charter boats were based, the marina had less boats than they had over the winter.

There was speculation that the Greek owners were trying to bankrupt the marina so they could sell to debt free to a "mate", but then again the owner might have been an ignorant moron

But I guess a few marinas are Turkish owned, so maybe that will follow the market, but Greek owned I still think hahahahahahahahahahahahaha

[hoppy]

Originally Posted by Barra

A little salt for you at xmas chuck - you would pay 1300 euros under this new tax as its in whole meters not 1219.

If we believe in free markets (admittedly in europe thats not a given) then the cost of a berth in greece will be about to drop substantially next year as less boats stay or visit so for a non eu flagged boat greece overall may become cheaper as palaran says

Remember its all about the marginal cost of a berth and this tax will move boats make no mistake. Turkey and croatia will become even more expensive and greece berths even cheaper by years end as marinas try to break even.

3 big losers here -

1. Greeks employed in businesses supporting the cruising boats
2. Greek marina owners
3. Eu flagged boats in greece

I don't think that the tax will make such a big impact on boats that are based in Greece and pay for 12 months contracts at marinas.

I think that when people add up the total cost of moving to places like Croatia & Turkey, they will see that whilst Greece will be more expensive than it has been, it will not have priced itself out of business.

I think there will be more of an internal shuffle of boats within Greece with people moving to cheaper marinas to lessen the impact of the tax.

The people who move out of Greece will be the ones already planning to move in the next season or two anyway as the tax will get them thinking more about it now, those who are already stretching their finances to keep a boat there and those who have a pile of junk down there littering the free town keys.

With the exception of the August Italians and boats based in Turkey, I don't think visiting yachts not coming will make much of an impact.

I think that the biggest problem for the Greek businesses will be caused if the Italians stay home and if the EU and non-EU Turkish based yachts stay away.

Anyway, until the Greek ministry outlines exactly how the tax will be implemented and collected, I think it is crazy to decide 100% to leave or simply not visit.

[Palarran]

Originally Posted by athene

You're quite correct in your calculations, but not in the currency. It's HRK 600 (about €79) for 30 days. I don't understand how you paid €600 unless someone took serious advantage of you (or unless you mean in Greece rather than Croatia?). The addition for the new Croatian navigation tax would be around HRK 300 (about €40) for 12 months, depending on engine power. This tax is a lump sum, with no concession for shorter stays.

Berthing costs, IMHO, are a completely separate matter, since you're paying for the facilities provided, not for the privilege of being in the country. I think the average Greek port police harbour charge of €8 - 12 is about right for the average Greek harbour (although there are a few shining exceptions). Equally, some Croatian harbours are indeed way too expensive for the facilities they offer, but at least one doesn't have to patronise them, whereas you can't escape paying the cruising fees.

Look at article 5 and the top of the currency column. It shows the euro symbol.
Google Translate

And I'm sure I paid for than $80 for a cruising permit. It was actually around 400 euro for 21 days.

The costs of Croatia have been posted in other threads. Yes you can anchor out and not have any added costs, but the bonus of being able to use a town quay is worth something and that makes Greece a much better deal. Hvar, Korcula, and Stari Grad cost a fortune to dock, though we found it almost worthwhile. Paxos, Argostoli, Sami, Nidri, and more where practically free.

In regards to those questioning whether the new tax will replace the old cruising tax, I'll use my common sense. No the new law doesn't say it replaces it, but I feel confident it does. And the simple truth is that not many have every paid the old cruising tax anyway.

[beneteau-500]

yes you will still have to pay for your DEKPA-eu yachts and for transit logs for non eu boats plus you will find in 2014 you will have to pay the local port fees as well in the past only a few have charged this fee but i believe with the discussions i have had here on naxos with Authorities and three commercial fishing boats you will most definitely be charged with these fees the prob at moment is how to make cruisers pay the port police dont see it as there responsibility to collect the new cruising tax they believe it is the tax office responsibility and this is where the agent system is and looks likely to be introduced just like in turkey so there will be an additional fee for that and how to give non greeks a tax number but i believe now this will be your passport Number .

[chuckr]

we have voted and we do not trust the Greeks -- we just made our reservations for Port Yasmine Tunisia for next year -- we really think the greeks are going to make a mess and we just don't want to take a chance and get caught up in the mess - nor can we afford it if the greeks do decide to implement it
the other reason we already booked is if boats there decide to leave some may come this way and Port Yasmine is already pretty full and we wanted to guarantee a space

let the greeks do what they want - we will watch from a distance -- don't like to get to close to a burning house -

[beneteau-500]

chuckr do you know any thing about greece or greek people my personnel view is this new tax is good and should of been introduced in 2009 and ok it will effect some non greek yachts and people but a lot of this is all about having a proper financial stability in Greece and finally making commercial yachting pay there way and there are a lot of non Greek boats who ply there trade in greek waters who have not paid there way

[chuckr]

bennie 500 -- that is fine but i simply can not afford 1300 euros for less than 90 sailing in greek waters -