Greek Tax! - MERGED 4 THREADS

[dana-tenacity]

At $1,900 Euros (over $3k in NZD) I'd be out. Pity, always wanted to sail there.

[gloriax]

Originally Posted by athene

Let's hope the Greeks don't share your attitude - they have enough problems as it is (though not with writing proper English ...)

hehehe, do not you worry about my English. English is not even my second language. I wonder how many foreign languages you can speak, let alone write.

Any way, for Greeks or any other country that have or will implement any charges, as I said before,

What do you expect – you Brits invented....no such a thing as a free lunch, you get what you pay for.


Dubrovnik this morning












England this morning..

[Barra]

As I understand it its not a big change for non EU boats that winter in greece ie right now I will pay around 800 euros for my 12.7m boat when i leave on surrender of my transit log. Under this new tax i would pay 500 euro (assuming its 400 euro plus 100 per meter over that - i hope thats right) for 12 months. Its a rub.

Havn't been to Turkey yet (thats next year) but from all reports its beautiful but getting more expensive for marinas and haul outs at an exponential rate. We chose Greece this winter for haul out as even with the taxes it was still around 2000 euro cheaper than quotes we received from Turkey! Many we spoke to did the same.

Seems like the boats that would be hit by this tax are EU boats and non EU boats staying less than 3 months. Pretty dumb I agree but a countrys costs include much more than just the taxes (marinas, food etc) and all up greece will still be the cheapest place we have cruised in the med yet.

(Croatia was the most expensive and the boats still flock there in the thousands)

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Tellus

Yepp, but since few years our currency called Euro with all its problems.
At the beginning we had huge problems even in Germany, because of parity to $$.
For my opinion it´s a birth defect by Brussels to keep some countries in the Euro zone. Has speed up their problems.

you're right , Germany should not haven allowed in, until they accept that inflation is a reasonable monetary policy as is quantative easing, if we had they there would have been no euro crisis. The euro should not have been constructed to b a Deutschemark in disguise. recreating a "gold standard" may have suited German pensioners, but was woefully useless for the majority of Eurozone countries that needed a weaker currency.


sorry political ramblings
Dave

[goboatingnow]

as per the greek tax, well see whats happens, but the effects on visiting cruisers is irelevent. they make up a tiny tiny part of the greek tourist trade. Thoses that keep their boats there, often have little choice but to pay up ( or get out of boating altogether) very few people can just jump country.

dave

[Boatguy30]

Gloriax- some fine reporting!

[nickmilon]

Originally Posted by hoppy

Ok, maybe for boats over 12m it will be €400 plus €100 per meter over 12m

7m - 8m €200
8m – 10m €300
10m – 12m €400
Over 12m €100/metre

that pricing makes more sense than the jump from 400 to 1200

Been local THIS interpretation of the law looks more close to what I read in Greek media.
Also note that we are still talking about a draft law which I expect to be finalised around end of the month when 2014 budget law has to pass through the parliament.
There is strong opposition from strong lobbies as you can see here : e-Nautilia.gr: (use G translator)

[athene]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

as per the greek tax, well see whats happens, but the effects on visiting cruisers is irelevent. they make up a tiny tiny part of the greek tourist trade. Thoses that keep their boats there, often have little choice but to pay up ( or get out of boating altogether) very few people can just jump country.

dave

I think there are quite a few tavernas and other businesses - especially on the islands - that would disagree with you. I could list dozens of them in both the Aegean and Ionian that would probably not survive without the trade from cruisers.

Also, jumping country is a real option, which is why the association of Greek marina owners is strongly opposed to the measure, since they fear that Turkish marinas (which have advantageous tax treatment compared with Greek ones) will be the ultimate beneficiaries.

It's true that Greece has always been a cheap country to cruise (which is why so many cruisers go there), but then it's rare that you find anything in a Greek harbour other than some (often) rusty mooring rings or bollards to tie up to - and sometimes not many of them - plus a patch of mud in which to drop your anchor. Other countries which one might consider competitors for cruisers' custom frequently offer laid moorings, harbour staff to take lines, toilets, electricity and water - at a price, of course.

Rather than trying to impose a new tax, a better solution is radical reform of the management of those Greek harbours used by cruisers. Retire all the superfluous port police staff and employ a polyglot youngster for each harbour, equipped with a book of receipts and a bumbag, to help each yacht as it arrives and collect a standard charge. From my observation of Greek harbours, the revenue uplift would be massive and the impost would not be resented if it were appropriate to the facilities provided.

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by athene

But that's not the point. No sensible government imposes a swinging tax on movable assets, because it's just too easy to relocate them to a more benign tax regime. Even the rumour (as is clear from the postings here) is enough to deter a lot of cruisers from visiting or returning to Greece.

Greece is only now beginning to get back on its feet after the financial crisis of the past three years: you don't take the patient off life support just as he's starting to breathe normally again.

I wonder how much of this is about politicians directing attention away from other issues (like persuading locals to pay taxes) by showing they are taxing the rich yachties who visit Greece each year. I know yachties aren't all rich, but to the average Greek seeing the politicians taxing foreigners is going to be supported.

Pete

[Barra]

Originally Posted by athene

Rather than trying to impose a new tax, a better solution is radical reform of the management of those Greek harbours used by cruisers. Retire all the superfluous port police staff and employ a polyglot youngster for each harbour, equipped with a book of receipts and a bumbag, to help each yacht as it arrives and collect a standard charge. From my observation of Greek harbours, the revenue uplift would be massive and the impost would not be resented if it were appropriate to the facilities provided.

What you are suggesting sounds alot like croatia. We enjoyed croatia but were happy to leave the rampant exploitation and hand holding of anything to do with sailing behind us and much more enjoyed the more real world harbours in greece.

If people want hand holding (charter boats) then they can always head for a marina. Luckily Greece seems to be going their own way and this will keep their ports charm I hope.

[nickmilon]

Don't forget same tax applies to Greek citizens too, they are not exempt from this while they have to pay some more based on boat ownership and other criteria, the only exception is boats belonging to charter companies but they do pay some VAT and other taxes.

[Nostrodamus]

Originally Posted by nickmilon

Don't forget same tax applies to Greek citizens too, they are not exempt from this while they have to pay some more based on boat ownership and other criteria, the only exception is boats belonging to charter companies but they do pay some VAT and other taxes.

I think motor boats under 8m are excluded which takes out most of the locally owned Greek boats and fishing boats.

[Nostrodamus]

As far as I understand it the costs for boats over 12m will be 100 euros per meter for the total length of the boat.
It is not 400 euros plus 100 euros for ever meter over... Those bowsprits could cost a few people several hundred euros.

[Nostrodamus]

Google translate:-
Following press release ' Union Marina Greece on the proposed implementation of the " End Residence and Operate ( COP ) of yachts ."


COMMUNICATION

The Board of Directors of the Union Marina Greece on " End Residence and commissioning "

To celebrate the addition of amendments to the draft Law of the Ministry of National Defense "Arrangements for the treatment of highly urgent and unforeseen needs " Greek Defence Systems SA " , which was discussed yesterday in the Greek parliament , the Greek Marinas Association , is deeply protest on the proposed implementation of the " End Residence and Operate ( COP ) of yachts " which will have extremely adverse effects on already any previous environment of marine tourism in our country.

Given the country's need for revenue inflow and acting in a critical environment where :

TAIPED performs the competitions concession marina and tourist boats seeking shelter investors marinas in the country have the lowest occupancy of the last 10 years and are anxious about their viability trying to stem the exodus of tourist boats started from similar measures in the recent past,
the continuous decline in turnover and unemployment soars professionals yachting as ever ,

the Union Marina Greece considers detrimental electricity for a country's economy , as it will result to prevent the advent of foreign vessels in Greece and prosecute those that have chosen our country as the permanent berthing .

More specifically, the action :

Will not achieve the target of additional revenue since it will receive anything from the vessels will leave to competing countries. Rather, it will result in a substantial reduction in government revenue from VAT and other taxes , such as revenues from fuel taxes , due to the departure of vessels within a few months , possibly before the end of this year.

Contributes to rising unemployment among seamen and professionals through retirement vessels.

Causes further insecurity and uncertainty in Greek and mostly foreign vessel owners will avoid our country for the permanent mooring of their vessel
Thus leading the Greek marinas which pay high rents to the State an even more negative outcomes, lower competitiveness and inability to fulfill their obligations.

Send negative messages uncertainty and risk in Greek and foreign potential investors exploitation and tourist ports , while ongoing competitions concession .

Strengthens such actions competing countries , which are directly and effectively exploit our weaknesses to enhance their own marinas within the same field of marine tourism , namely the Aegean and Ionian seas .

The Union Marina Greece proposes to provide effective incentives to attract vessels in our country and in Greek marinas , to enhance the economic value of the sector and government revenues such as:

- Reducing the rate of VAT for berthing and benefits ( in Turkey is zero ), as has been done in hotels and in focus.

- The abolition of all excise taxes, annual and contributory tourist vessels that choose Greece as their permanent mooring and especially foreign vessels that contribute significantly to move high quality tourism in our country.

We urge the Ministry of Tourism and SETE and all stakeholders shipping and tourism public or private nature struggling for tourism uplift the country and upgrading of marine tourism in our country to take a stand and to contribute actively to amend the relevant provisions the Law, so as to prevent their implementation .

[NornaBiron]

The law was passed yesterday - guess we'll be leaving!