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athene · 22-11-2013, 02:19

I don't think I'd like to be a Greek port police officer when all the skippers who have laid up in Greece for the winter return next year to find they've suddenly become subject to a significant unexpected tax.

It's cleverly framed not to penalise Greek private vessels (the vast majority of which are motor boats under 12 metres) and charter operations (who get a 50 per cent reduction). The government's argument, of course, is that most surrounding countries levy various forms of tax, e.g. Croatia, Italy, Montenegro and Turkey. The difference is (I'm afraid to say) that most Greek harbours provide absolutely nothing for the money, whereas in their competitor countries visiting yachts at least get a modicum of facilities, even if there are notable exceptions.

It wouldn't be so bad if this money was going to be reinvested in general harbour infrastructure to e.g. repair broken mooring rings, install water and electricity points, clear old mooring chains and blocks, refurbish quays, even maybe put in laid moorings etc, but sadly that's highly unlikely.

I fear the net result of this tax will be a boost to government revenues at the expense of hundreds of Greek businesses that depend on cruisers for survival, since many cruisers (as some of the postings here show) will bypass Greece or simply spend less time there.

In 2013 many taverna owners and other businesses in cruising areas were already complaining about reduced trade - they may (for no fault of their own) find 2014 marks the start of some even tougher years to come.

beneteau-500 · 22-11-2013, 02:21

And what you will find happening next yr will be Yachts coming across from turkey into greek waters will be checked more Thoroughly as quiet a few yachts will anchor in a bay like a Pedie on the Island Of symi and around Mandraki Kastelhorizon with out checking In and on kastelhorizon the radar system used there by the military has been upgraded

Nostrodamus · 22-11-2013, 03:15

We would have wintered in Greece next year and paid for haul out/ antifoul.
Now we would not.
Why should I pay 700 euros over 6 months plus the marina costs. It would be far too expensive. I should imagine many will do the same and go to other nearby countries where you do not have to pay a tax for just sitting there.
This will certainly mean many boating associated trades going under.

beneteau-500 · 22-11-2013, 04:07

well why not set up a poll on here and vote how many yachties are willing to pay this new cruising tax and lets see how many will now not sail in greek waters and how many will leave

Nostrodamus · 22-11-2013, 04:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by beneteau-500

well why not set up a poll on here and vote how many yachties are willing to pay this new cruising tax and lets see how many will now not sail in greek waters and how many will leave

The trouble is it is a law that has been passed but no one understands how it will be implemented.
I may pay for several months in summer when you can actually sail but I would not want to pay in winter when conditions prevented me from going anywhere.
From what I can see you also don't have to pay if your boat is out the water.
At the moment there are too many if's and buts.
It has just been passed to appease the EU so it can get it's money from them but I don't know if they understand what they have passed.
It seems to be a general thing and none of the implication decisions have been made.

letsgetsailing3 · 22-11-2013, 05:32

Nobody likes taxes. Especially wealthy Greeks and Italians, who are famous for not paying. Decades of people not paying their taxes makes people who aren't paying confident, and makes anyone who is paying feel like an idiot.

The most famous story in Greece is that they implemented a tax on pools, but in the Athens area only 324 people were admitting to having pools, out of over 16,000 estimated actual pools.

The problem is that nobody in Greece wants to pay taxes, but the people expect European-style benefits. You can't have both.

So yes, the problem is bigger than a few yachts.

Is it worth paying the yacht tax and in order to cruise in Greece? It's up to the cruisers themselves. I guess if I were in Greece on a boat I wouldn't want to pay this tax, either, but I do love sailing in Greece. You have to look at the overall costs, not simply the principle of paying a tax. It may be that you still come out ahead.

Tellus · 22-11-2013, 06:48

don´t hit me, but to me some are complaining on a very high level.
...Owners of Oyster, Swan, CC..and so on...

athene · 22-11-2013, 06:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tellus

don´t hit me, but to me some are complaining on a very high level.
...Owners of Oyster, Swan, CC..and so on...

So it's even worse than we thought. Greece is going to lose the big spenders ...

athene · 22-11-2013, 06:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nostrodamus

The trouble is it is a law that has been passed but no one understands how it will be implemented.
I may pay for several months in summer when you can actually sail but I would not want to pay in winter when conditions prevented me from going anywhere.
From what I can see you also don't have to pay if your boat is out the water.
At the moment there are too many if's and buts.
It has just been passed to appease the EU so it can get it's money from them but I don't know if they understand what they have passed.
It seems to be a general thing and none of the implication decisions have been made.

Unfortunately (although the article as translated by Google isn't exactly crystal clear) that may or may not be a false assumption. The Article refers to 'ships and small boats, regardless of their flag, sailing, moored or anchored in Greek territorial waters'. Does a laid up yacht count as 'moored or anchored'? I wouldn't bet against the Greek authorities interpreting any ambiguities in their own favour rather than that of cruising yacht owners.

beneteau-500 · 22-11-2013, 07:10

well i arrived back in naxos last night and have just spent the day going through a pile of mail and strike me dead i got my annual property tax bill of which is late in paying and water/elec bill my normal Naxos and sth Aegean prefecture bill is 1500 euros per yr but they have raised it this year by 14% which is now 1710 euros as i was late in payment i got a wait for it 100 % fine of total amount out standing and talking to my neighbours this morning right at this moment tax inspectors are doing the rounds on all the hotels and rental apparments and i believe they have found 57% of the business have failed to declare the full tax earnings and so far 2 business which have about 30 holiday units between them have had there property's confiscated of to the local cafe tonight so will be able to find out more but one thing i have found out about the cruising tax is that agents are to be set up for the collection a bit like turkey so that will add more fees

athene · 22-11-2013, 07:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by beneteau-500

... but one thing i have found out about the cruising tax is that agents are to be set up for the collection a bit like turkey so that will add more fees

Thanks for that useful post. Can you add anything after your visit to the cafe (assuming the tax inspectors haven't closed it by the time you get there) to help with Nostrodamus' query - i.e. does time on the hard standing count as being 'moored or anchored' in the country?

It's of interest to me too, since it would be useful to know if I'm expected to cough up €650 as soon as I arrive back in Preveza next May.

Obviously, as Tellus opines above, it won't cause you as a Swan 65 owner or me as an Oyster 435 owner any financial distress. Like me, you probably light your cigars with €100 notes ...

nickmilon · 22-11-2013, 07:27

by the way, here is Greek Minister of shipping pages on twitter and facebook, just in case you want to tell him how you feel

[URL="https://twitter.com/MVarvitsiotis"]

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Miltiadis-Varvitsiotis/11826062300

letsgetsailing3 · 22-11-2013, 07:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tellus

don´t hit me, but to me some are complaining on a very high level.
...Owners of Oyster, Swan, CC..and so on...

I noticed that.

letsgetsailing3 · 22-11-2013, 07:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by athene

So it's even worse than we thought. Greece is going to lose the big spenders ...

If they're really big spenders, will a few hundred euro change their plans?

Won't they spend that in order to move their boat somewhere else?

It's true they might move on the principle that they hate the word "tax", but the Med is truly a beautiful place. I think Italy and Greece will still have sailboats, though this might free up some marina space.