Ocean Concerns

[Kelkara]

Originally Posted by transmitterdan

I read somewhere that dinosaurs had much larger biomass than people.

Why are you guys so focussed on animals ... plant biomass still dominates. And let's not forget who the real polluters are ... For billions of years the earth had a nice stable CO2-rich oxygen-poor atmosphere, and then those pesky plants invented photosynthesis, and the chemistry of the atmosphere and oceans has never recovered.

And what did they get for polluting the atmosphere and oceans with all that oxygen? The evolution of the herbivore! They were so busy enjoying the photosynthesis party they never saw it coming.

It wouldn't surprise me if we aren't being manipulated by a conspiracy of plants who have finally woken up to the realisation that atmospheric CO2 is a finite resource, and their hedonistic lifestyle of burying it underground in coal deposits is unsustainable ...

[john61ct]

From urbandictionary

Original saying was "I'm all right Jack, pull up the ladder"

Meaning when a man had got safely on board ship by climbing the ladder from the sea or from a lifeboat, don't bother about saving the rest of the guys because I don't really care about them.

A thoughtless self-serving person when asked to sympathise or help someone who had lost his/her job might say "Well, I'm all right Jack!".

[Exile]

Originally Posted by john61ct

Yes, almost 40 years now. Where've you been?

Been around. I remember the first "Earth Day" when I was in school, secondary I think. Been calling it "Earth" ever since. Silly me.

> The mythological name was revived in 1979 by James Lovelock, in Gaia: A New Look at Life on Earth; his Gaia hypothesis was supported by Lynn Margulis. The hypothesis proposes that living organisms and inorganic material are part of a dynamical system that shapes the Earth's biosphere, and maintains the Earth as a fit environment for life.

What's so "new" about that one? I'd say the "hypothesis" is well proven. But if the book didn't become a made-for-TV-movie I may have missed it.

> In some Gaia theory approaches, the Earth itself is viewed as an organism with self-regulatory functions.

Pretty sure it's referred to as the "sinks" (forgot the scientific name because . . . well . . . I'm not a scientist) that regulate CO2 in the atmosphere by absorbing them into the ground, the seas, and the flora & fauna. Somewhere btwn a "majority," "most," and 97-99% of climatologists (depending on who & what you read) believe that all the crap we're pulling out of the ground to burn for energy and putting in the air is exceeding the capacity of the sinks to absorb & therefore regulate. Not sure if it's Gaia theory or not, but it's a theory.

[Exile]

Originally Posted by john61ct

From urbandictionary

Original saying was "I'm all right Jack, pull up the ladder"

Meaning when a man had got safely on board ship by climbing the ladder from the sea or from a lifeboat, don't bother about saving the rest of the guys because I don't really care about them.

A thoughtless self-serving person when asked to sympathise or help someone who had lost his/her job might say "Well, I'm all right Jack!".

OK, I understand now. It sounds like those who refer to themselves as "environmentalists" because, after building their own houses out in some pristine woods, they then advocate that nobody else should.

[LakeSuperior]

Most northerners (US/Canada) suspect that the common black fly comprises 80% of the biomass in the north country.

[rgleason]

Barnakiel:
Originally Posted by rgleason
...we constitute what is probably the single largest single species biomass ever seen. (...)

Not there yet!

--Sorry I should have put the first paragraph in quotes as it is not mine.

Guys: We are now under scrutiny, so please be gentle with each other. Personal attacks are not necessary.

I am sorry I have not read everything since my last post, and will try to, but I wanted to add these very recent links for consideration.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...port-2017.html

Humans 'dominant cause' of climate change, federal report says, contradicting Trump officials - ABC News

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.508a14c04e0e

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry...b0c9652fff4197

[rgleason]

Boy, you guys are really getting into this.

Years ago, Silvia Earl spoke at Mystic Seaport about the terrible practice of fishing for the "Lions of the Sea" along the Atlantic ridge (fish at the top of the ocean food pyramid, as compared to krill.) She elaborated and encouraged all of us not to order exotic fish, but to eat vegetarian instead (no cows), as I recall.

Now with the loss of krill. --Very bad news. (Following some 'tweet' formats)
https://www.google.com/search?q=phyt...utf-8&oe=utf-8

https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...on-population/

https://www.nasa.gov/feature/goddard...ern-hemisphere

Originally Posted by hpeer

From Barnikels link, note humans are now at 7.4 billion, putting abot equal with krill. +/-. Must be some skinny folks to average 50kg. Wiki has I‎t at 62kg. Cows still win
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_body_weight

“Among the most widespread animals are humans. 6.9 billion people averaging 50kg each equals roughly 350 million tonnes. Staggeringly, cow biomass exceeds 650 million tonnes (1.3 billion cattle conservatively weighing 500kg each).

The only wild species in the running is Antarctic Krill. A 2009 global estimate gives 379 million tonnes fresh biomass, but unknown aspects of this shrimp’s ecology make it hard to be sure. By comparison, blue whales (with their krill-based diet) comprised about 35 million tonnes pre-whaling, and about half a million tonnes in 2001.”

[rgleason]

Originally Posted by DeepFrz

Science is now suggesting that there may be a mini ice age in the northern hemisphere, especially in norther Europe as the cold fresh water from the melting arctic ice and Greenland glaciers sits on top of the more dense salty layers of the northern oceans.

We are in for a ride folks and the bucking has already started.

Yes, that was the first post.

The following could be called unproven "opinion" by some.
What is interesting from a physics perspective, is that all that cold energy released by greater surface area from broken up glaciers and sea ice needs to go somewhere. So we in the temperate areas see greater activity in the form of more intense hurricanes, big wind storms, etc as the cold mixes with the tropics. Yes, the typical weather patterns will be disrupted. ...and "they" think that by de-funding NOAA they can stop it from happening or people knowing about it?
Fat chance.

If we are lucky, at some point big Oil and the Grid Utilities will become redundant, by decentralized PV and vastly improved battery technology, but only by not meddling with the market status quo!

[rgleason]

A new concept for me. "Atmospheric Rivers", NASA again.
https://www.nasa.gov/feature/jpl/nas...spheric-rivers

I suppose with enough change, these atmospheric rivers could wreck havoc, floods and droughts, but there could be some good, like changing the great deserts into a more habitable place.

What we have not discussed is that taboo "population control" and the value systems such as religion, growth & prosperity, as we understand it, depend on population growth. As I see it, we humans have not changed our oil habits enough, and now the only alternative is population reduction!

What would that do to all the mechanisms and theories about the economy and the massive societal adjustments that would be required? It could be a very disruptive environment, more so than the mere climate. ...So we just continue on the same path, as a bunch of lemmings would.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Suijin

You have it backwards. Climate change and changing rainfall patterns are influencing the earth's tilt, not vice versa.

Ahh.. So what your saying is.. because some parts of Earth are drying out and getting lighter other parts get so wet the ground water floods over and all this building extra weight transfer is affecting the wobble..
Feasable as anything else I suppose..

[CatNewBee]

my two cents.

The whole world is subject to change since the beginning - and this is absolutely OK. Otherwise we would not be there.

A climate change denier is in my opinion a person, that want to stop the change - this is stupid - mankind cannot even control the weather locally - so how they dare to claim they could control the climate on a large scale globally?

Indeed the oceans were cooler in some past periods - they were called ICE AGE - and most species do not survive this times.

Dinosaurs, giant plants and highest biodiversity exist during warm periods - not cold periods, CO2 concentration in the atmosphere was much higher during this times - an human population was ZERO.

So I say YES to global warming, it leads to more live on earth. Guess why they called CO2 a Greenhouse gas - Greenhouses are there to make plants grow faster and bigger for good reason. Nothing wrong with living in a green house instead of living in a ice desert.

Pollution is another topic. Of course we have to be cautious with the environment, but this "global warming hype" is just a rip off.

[rgleason]

The recent report advises about:

"Most striking, perhaps, the report warns of the unpredictable — changes that scientists cannot foresee that could involve tipping points or fast changes in the climate system. These could switch the climate into “new states that are very different from those experienced in the recent past.”

As mentioned earlier, the climate is on a "knife edge". Changes after trigger events could be very dramatic. -- In the extreme it could be Emphazema for everyone or maybe something else, like ..starvation? These are things we have difficulty believing..Chicken Little "the sky is falling". Perhaps it is the "I'm OK Jack" syndrome that keeps us disassociated from what is happening in nature?

We need to recall those less commercial times, when several generations ago, when nature was more present in our lives and we made everything by ourselves or locally. It was a time with its own rewards, slower paced, with more work and not nearly as comfortable, but there was food on the table.

[CatNewBee]

Originally Posted by rgleason

What we have not discussed is that taboo "population control" and the value systems such as religion, growth & prosperity, as we understand it, depend on population growth. As I see it, we humans have not changed our oil habits enough, and now the only alternative is population reduction!

I don't think so - in US it's called planned parenthood and promoted by the liberals - isn't it?

[StuM]

Originally Posted by rgleason

What is interesting from a physics perspective, is that all that cold energy released by greater surface area from broken up glaciers and sea ice needs to go somewhere. So we in the temperate areas see greater activity in the form of more intense hurricanes, big wind storms, etc as the cold mixes with the tropics.

Cold energy???

No point in trying to discuss science any further here.

[DeepFrz]

And then there was this! News report this morning of a new federal report. At least new to me.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/polit...-AAupxHY?pfr=1