E FOY Fuel Cell Generator

[phantomracer]

Originally Posted by lsoltero

Has anyone tried reagent grade methanol in the efoy unit? Its quite inexpensive compared to the efoy cartridges. For example here is a 5gal pail of 99.99% purce methanol of $44

(Freight Only) 5 Gallon Pails of Methanol [methpailf] | DudaDiesel Biodiesel Supplies

Just wondering if there is an alternative to paying the $80 for an M10.

--luis

I haven't. With the cost of a replacement fuel cell, I am not about to try. The question has come up a lot. I dont know anyone who has done it.

Of course EFOY states to ONLY use theirs. Unsure if there is any basis over using more commonly available fuel...other than to ensure exclusive future fuel sales!

[lsoltero]

i just found this on panbo.com

https://www.panbo.com/efoy-fuel-cell-a-winner/

john mcnab November 29, 2011 at 11:58 am
DID YOU US OTHER METANOL IN YOUR EFOY UNIT
I HAVE BEEN RUNNING MINE ON LOCALY PURCHASED METANOL
99.9% PURED FOR THE LAST 12 MONTHS WITH NO PROBLEMS

So someone was brave enough to try it. Reagent grade methanol is pretty pure stuff. It used as a solvent for making drugs and in many chemical procedures. So... if the efoy only needs methanol then my guess is that 99.99% pure reagent grade stuff should work fine.

--luis

[rsn48]

Another argument for Efoy is apparently, bad memory here but some of you will be more familiar with what I'm about to say, the ICW or Great Lakes - A or B of the above - is beginning to ban generator use due to noise issues.

[skipmac]

Originally Posted by rsn48

Another argument for Efoy is apparently, bad memory here but some of you will be more familiar with what I'm about to say, the ICW or Great Lakes - A or B of the above - is beginning to ban generator use due to noise issues.

I cannot imagine this is even remotely possible. The ICW crosses eight different states and dozens of city and county jurisdictions. Generators could possibly be banned in a few locales but it would take an act of Congress (literally) to ban them on the entire ICW.

Likewise the Great Lakes that fall under the jurisdiction of two countries, several Canadian provinces and several US states. Seems unlikely that it could happen there either.

But I could be wrong.

Anyway, an eFoy isn't a replacement for an AC generator, it doesn't produce nearly as much power.

[john61ct]

Really just an "upstream battery bank" IMO, and have yet to find out any reassuring fuel supply info anywhere but the EU.

[rsn48]

So I thought I would breath new life into an old thread. This thread and a few other sources inspired me to move towards Efoy. My boat is in the Pacific Northwest and Coastal BC area of the planet. This geography translates into clouds, long term and rain long term.

At first I only considered adding a 210 Efoy unit but over time I have changed slightly to not only adding the Efoy unit but also including solar. With the two, and including alternator running and adding a regulator to turn my alternator into a smart alternator, I will have lots of juice.

First my boat was gutted in refit and basically everything removed and replaced. I took out the old FLA batteries and have replaced them with 4 Fireflies, and 2 for my external Exturn bow thruster and windless.

I was going to compromise and go to the 140 Efoy. But I was convinced I could find a used Efoy if I was stubborn enough. First I tried locally to find one, then all of BC, then all of Canada, then all of North American, then all of the world. Apparently everyone loves their Efoys. I did this for a year and a half checking almost weekly to see if anything would pop up.

I saw an advert almost locally on Vancouver Island that was advertising two full M10 Efoy canisters for $80 (no tax). On Vancouver Island, one canister is going for $80 plus tax. So even though I hadn't bought my new Efoy, I decided to get the fuel. When I drove down to Sidney (greater Victoria), the guy kept asking me if I had already bought my Efoy unit. Finally I brightened up (I have moments of stupidity) and asked why he was asking. Turns out two used ones were coming in, I'm glad he didn't hear my heart pumping so loudly - a possible score.

So I asked what the two were. One was the 80 Efoy, not the unit I wanted at all. From all my perusing of the net, the only complaints I have heard is guys who bought the bottom model wishing they had bought the 140 instead. The guy told me the second unit was a 210 Efoy used, I had struck the mother load. The price was the cost of a 140 Efoy new (before adding the tax). I immediately put a thousand deposit on it, the unit hadn't arrived. It was previously used on a motorhome.

With the balance I have saved by purchasing used, I will be installing solar. And if any of you follow Will Prouce's blog, you know that more expensive solar panels don't necessarily perform any better than cheaper ones, or hold up better. But note, some cheaper ones are junk. I'm hoping to install at least 300 watts.

With solar in the summer time when we have good weather, and with our long hours of sunshine in our northern region. I should be good to go with almost using solar only. But in the cloudier days if I can score at least 30 amps from solar, the alternator topping up and the Efoy kicking in, I should be good to go.

I will be running one smaller refrigerator, one smaller freezer, the usual electronics on when at anchor. A radio unit, the use of a toaster at breakfast, the use by one person of a hair blower (my wife) set on medium, and in the off season days and nights running my Espar heater I figure I can last at anchor for almost a week with my set up without moving.

Oh and PS: When I had the refrigerator and freezer installed, I had one inch foam added surrounding each unit. My refitter did this to his boat and he figures it cut down on his run time by 50 %.

[jhenerberry]

Hello Cruisers,
I just removed an Efoy 1600 Fuel Cell from my boat in anticipation of installing a generator as part of a conversion to electric propulsion perhaps a year away (if I can save up the $$$).

Anyway, the Efoy has only 2131 hours (meaning still 3000 hours of designed run time left before the unit needs a factory rebuild to give it another 5000 hours).

Since I see some interest in the fuel cells here, and a lament for the high price of them, I joined up so I could offer my used unit for sale. The original purchase price in 2012 was $4039 from Defender. I'd be happy to get $1300 plus shipping to see her get into a new home and add to my kitty for the electric conversion.

I've been a long time lurker on this site, often coming here through a Google search on many, many sailing topics and have benefited greatly from the accumulated wisdom of this community.

I mostly work on (and sometimes sail) my 1987 Passport 40, hull #123 by the name of Lottie B. Thanks for having me.

Jim

[Na Mara]

I am preparing my boat for a transatlantic circuit and I have been looking into the various options and I have to say that i think many here have been a bit too hasty in dismissing the fuel cell route.

On my boat there is basically no unshaded deck space where solar could be mounted. I would need to put up some kind targa arch, davits, or poles to mount solar. I have looked into the cost of getting a custom gantry built and fitted and where we are (Sweden) its quite a bit north of 10000 dollars. Davits that are sufficiently stout to mount panels on would cost around 7000 dollars to fit and then you need to add one or two thousand to get them modified to fit panels. Even really cheap pole mounts that would look horrible would cost 1-2 thousand dollars and I could only get about 100-150W on them plus a wind generator.

By the time everything, including the panels and everything, is fitted and installed it would be about 13000 dollars for the arch, 9000 dollars for the davits and 5000 dollars for the poles. These prices are rough but include all the wiring charge controllers and so on.

Our daily consumption at anchor is never more than 50Ah, our daily use underway is never more than 150Ah. Our typical cruising when not going TransAt is day sailing with the occasional overnight sail, with about the same number of nights in harbour as on the hook. All harbours where we are have shore power available.

If I did one of the new EFOY hybrid systems https://www.my-efoy.com/en/efoy-hybrid-power/ it would set me back by about 9000 dollars half of which would be the LiFePo batteries. If I did any of the renewables options and included a new set of LiFePo batteries it will cost me as much or more than this.

So the capital costs are equivalent if not a slight edge for the EFOY hybrid system.

Now lets turn to the issue of the fuel. I calculated that for an entire year of cruising, taking into account shore power and propulsive motoring opportunities I would need about 160l of methanol and that this would cost me about 1500 dollars. Further the cell would have run for about 50% of its usable lifespan prior to reconditioning over that year so we have to reckon in also about 2500 dollars lost on the cell. So that is very roughly 4000 dollars for all the electricity I need for the year (plus a little bit for diesel on the alternator and shore power fees). Put into perspective our household electricity bill is about half that for a year. Once back though, each year we would probably use less than 10l a year of methanol given how we typically cruise and so the costs would drop to less than 150 dollars a year and we could expect the cell to last at least 10-15 years before needing serviced.

Now of course if we were longtime liveaboards then 4000 dollars a year in perpetuity for electricity is a lot, but as a one year hit its entirely manageable.

Further, were we to invest in a bunch of stainless aft, plus panels and wind generators then these would be great for that year we are away but they would just be a woefully under-utilised asset, an eyesore and in the way after the trip. If anything they would detract from the pleasure of sailing the boat normally. The fuel cell, on the other hand, would go in my battery bay under the pilothouse where it would neither be seen nor heard. It would just sit there as a silent reserve of power on those rare occasions after our return where we swing on the hook for longer than a few nights at a time.

So my judgement here is that far from fuel cells being uneconomical and a bad option for cruisers I think that for most North Atlantic cruisers they are probably the best option. The exceptions are those who do not have access to shore power at their home mooring, those looking to cruise beyond the North Atlantic (where the fuel can be difficult to source), those who are permanent or longterm live aboards, and those whose boats have already been modified to accommodate hundreds of watts of solar. Otherwise, if you are coastal monohull cruiser in the North Atlantic region, with a boat that doesn't already have a massive arch at the back, then I think a fuel cell is probably the way to go. Its certainly the way I am going to go.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Na Mara

I am preparing my boat for a transatlantic circuit and I have been looking into the various options and I have to say that i think many here have been a bit too hasty in dismissing the fuel cell route.

On my boat there is basically no unshaded deck space where solar could be mounted. I would need to put up some kind targa arch, davits, or poles to mount solar. I have looked into the cost of getting a custom gantry built and fitted and where we are (Sweden) its quite a bit north of 10000 dollars. Davits that are sufficiently stout to mount panels on would cost around 7000 dollars to fit and then you need to add one or two thousand to get them modified to fit panels. Even really cheap pole mounts that would look horrible would cost 1-2 thousand dollars and I could only get about 100-150W on them plus a wind generator.

By the time everything, including the panels and everything, is fitted and installed it would be about 13000 dollars for the arch, 9000 dollars for the davits and 5000 dollars for the poles. These prices are rough but include all the wiring charge controllers and so on.

Our daily consumption at anchor is never more than 50Ah, our daily use underway is never more than 150Ah. Our typical cruising when not going TransAt is day sailing with the occasional overnight sail, with about the same number of nights in harbour as on the hook. All harbours where we are have shore power available.

If I did one of the new EFOY hybrid systems https://www.my-efoy.com/en/efoy-hybrid-power/ it would set me back by about 9000 dollars half of which would be the LiFePo batteries. If I did any of the renewables options and included a new set of LiFePo batteries it will cost me as much or more than this.

So the capital costs are equivalent if not a slight edge for the EFOY hybrid system.

Now lets turn to the issue of the fuel. I calculated that for an entire year of cruising, taking into account shore power and propulsive motoring opportunities I would need about 160l of methanol and that this would cost me about 1500 dollars. Further the cell would have run for about 50% of its usable lifespan prior to reconditioning over that year so we have to reckon in also about 2500 dollars lost on the cell. So that is very roughly 4000 dollars for all the electricity I need for the year (plus a little bit for diesel on the alternator and shore power fees). Put into perspective our household electricity bill is about half that for a year. Once back though, each year we would probably use less than 10l a year of methanol given how we typically cruise and so the costs would drop to less than 150 dollars a year and we could expect the cell to last at least 10-15 years before needing serviced.

Now of course if we were longtime liveaboards then 4000 dollars a year in perpetuity for electricity is a lot, but as a one year hit its entirely manageable.

Further, were we to invest in a bunch of stainless aft, plus panels and wind generators then these would be great for that year we are away but they would just be a woefully under-utilised asset, an eyesore and in the way after the trip. If anything they would detract from the pleasure of sailing the boat normally. The fuel cell, on the other hand, would go in my battery bay under the pilothouse where it would neither be seen nor heard. It would just sit there as a silent reserve of power on those rare occasions after our return where we swing on the hook for longer than a few nights at a time.

So my judgement here is that far from fuel cells being uneconomical and a bad option for cruisers I think that for most North Atlantic cruisers they are probably the best option. The exceptions are those who do not have access to shore power at their home mooring, those looking to cruise beyond the North Atlantic (where the fuel can be difficult to source), those who are permanent or longterm live aboards, and those whose boats have already been modified to accommodate hundreds of watts of solar. Otherwise, if you are coastal monohull cruiser in the North Atlantic region, with a boat that doesn't already have a massive arch at the back, then I think a fuel cell is probably the way to go. Its certainly the way I am going to go.

Solar is fantastic on boats which can afford the windage, and which have the space. My previous boat had 500 watts of solar and it was fantastic.


But I can't do solar on my present boat, which unlike the previous one is set up for efficient sailing upwind.


Fuel cell is ok if you don't mind huge cost per produced amp/hour and small capacity. Good solution for say racing boats which need quite little power, but can't afford the weight or space for a diesel generator.


For your use case, however, I would think that a small diesel generator would be better. Much much cheaper cost per generated kWh, should be cheaper installation. Downside is noise. Upside is no special fuel, operating cost, capacity.


I don't know if it's available in Sweden, but the small simple Phaser and NextGen generators are just fantastic value for money, and extremely compact. I love this one: NEXT-GEN - Marine Power Units. 3.5kW in a tiny package, and the opposite engineering approach compared to Fischer-Panda -- they are very simple, straightforward to maintain and repair, reliable.


A small diesel generator plus school bus alternator on the main engine will keep you in power (and with redundant power sources).


Another approach could be to forgo the generator, and install a very large second alternator on the main engine. Combined with lithium batteries, that could be a great solution.

[phantomracer]

The fuel cell is not a generator. 2 totally separate products. A fuel cell is effectively a battery charger. It , generally, does not power devices directly.

The fuel cell is great for many reasons: quiet, safe, no moving parts, no CO output ( can be used below decks). Close to 100% efficient. It works at night, which solar is very poor at! It is not perfect as the fuel can be hard to get and is very expensive.

A generator is very loud, dangerous emissions , has a lot of moving parts, stunningly inefficient - most energy is output in the form of heat, not power. It can't be used below deck in the cabin. However it uses cheap readily available fuel and can power devices directly. When used to charge batteries, 99.9% (exagerating for effect) of the energy produced does not get into the battery.

Got to figure out what you want the device to do. how big are your batteries, how much solar (if any) you have, can you plug in?

Got to have a plan!

In my case, I had zero solar, no real estate for solar, never can plug in during the season, no place for a generator, only have 12 volt system. The EFOY fit the bill for me quite well. A couple Firefly batteries and the EFOY keeps me energy independent indefinably!

I think the best way to think about it is to think about the fuel cell as a non-plug in battery charger... If that is what you need, it can be a good choice, especially augmented with solar. It is not, nor can it replace, a generator. They fill 2 totally different needs.

[Na Mara]

Thanks for the reply Dockhead.

I do have space for a small genset in the sound insulated engine bay but:

1. The whole boat runs on 12V and I am a great believer in that. I don't even have a built in inverter, just a couple of plug in ones for guests who bring silly chargers for their phones and laptops. Everything else I have or will have on the boat runs or charges on 12v.Even the TV is 12v.

2. Diesel generators are as expensive as the EFOY Hybrid system and that is without the LFP batteries, they are also not primarily battery chargers as phantomracer points out. They are a sledge hammer to crack my nut.

3. Even if I could easily fit one somewhere where it would be fairly quiet, I don't go sailing to listen to the thrum of diesel engines.

4. This is another item that would need regularly serviced (filters checked and changed regularly, oil checked and changed regularly, etc.). The EFOY is a fit and forget item, just change the bottles over so often when the system tells you to.

Now were I to replace my engine with a hybrid electric, chuck in my gas cooker for induction, fit a washing machine, dishwasher, or any of the other myriad devices needing domestic voltages and amps to run then a diesel generator would definitely make sense. As I'm not doing any of that (How do you get away from everything if you take everything with you?), it doesn't.

Now a high power second alternator for charging a big bank of LFP domestic batteries makes more sense, but I would need to sort out some kind of custom mount for my Yanmar engine. That is not impossible and the engine is overpowered enough that I won't notice the extra load.

Suppose I could solve the mount problem and fit the second alternator (lots of space to the right of the engine to do this in but no mounting bracket). Lets say I fit a 160A alternator and leave the 55A for charging the FLA engine battery. Now lets say I fit 500Ah of lithium batteries giving me 450Ah usable. On most trips we run the engine for about an hour leaving and then again ariving. Thats a total of 300Ah into the batteries each trip. Lets say we use 100 on the average trip. Then we have 200Ah left to tide us over at anchor. That's 4 days for us. That looks really good! Basically, with our low consumption of electrons we would be getting enough into the batteries to meet our needs just using the engine as we normally would. Even crossing the Atlantic I would only have to run the engine for 3 hours every 3 days or so.

But now we hit on the problem: lack of redundancy. If the engine goes on the fritz in the middle of the pond, or somewhere where we cannot get the engine serviced, we are screwed (maybe we could take some folding solar panels for emergencies but you get my point).

Now my engine is a very reliable piece of kit that has never failed to start or go, but it is still an ICE with all the very many moving parts that such systems have.

So there is one reason for having a fuel cell instead of a second alternator: back up energy supply.

A second is the capital cost of the second alternator with very large liFePo bank needed to make it work optimally. 500Ah of LFP in these parts is about 7500 dollars, the second alternator will be maybe 1-2000 dollars, and all the custom fitting will be about 1000 dollars all in in very rough figure. That is about the same initial capital cost of the fuel cell with smaller LFP bank. Now the diesel is a lot cheaper than the methanol even with the inefficiencies of ICE's and I would have to also store methanol aboard (not a big problem in a 43ft pilothouse cruiser), but still that is a lot of money for something that does not give me redundancy in electricity generation. Out there, 2 is 1 and 1 is none. If I am paying 10k for a way to keep my batteries charged, I want that to give me a system that is independent of engine charging.

So I am not going to do the second alternator, despite it meeting my energy requirements perfectly well, for those two reasons: 1 The faff (greater than fuel cell) and cost (equal to fuel cell) of setting up such a system on my boat and 2. The fact that it doesn't give me redundancy in power generation. This latter is extremely important to me as one of my regular crew is a diabetic and so going without refrigeration is not optional.

But nonetheless the powerful second alternator route has a lot going for it if you can fit one and if you aren't going too far offshore.

I suppose I could look into doing both. I would already be fitting 2-300Ah of LFP for the fuel cell hybrid system anyway, the marginal cost of adding the second alternator to the engine over that is maybe 3000 dollars. That is relatively small beer for something that would significantly reduce run time on the feul cell. Indeed, it would mostly pay for itself by doing so within the year long circuit of the Atlantic. It would more than half methanol use and runtime on the feul cell thereby reducing the year cost of that system toward 1500 dollars from 4000.

Hmmmm.

I will look into this further. I am already going to need to contact a motor mechanic to get a belt driven bilge pump fitted, I can ask then what is possible by way of second alternators at the same time.

Thanks for the suggestion Dockhead.

[Pete7]

Rather than an extra alternator, how about a generator mounted on the engine.

https://www.hybrid-marine.co.uk/inde...agoing-hybrids

Not sure on costs but ought to be less than a diesel genny.

Also what stops you fitting say a pair of say 150w solar panels on the guard wires at the stern quarters? Cheap and cheerful plus easily removed unlike an arch.

Pete

[Na Mara]

Now that hybrid system is really nifty! I like that a lot.

A generator whilst sailing, a quiet electric engine for manuevering in harbour, and essentially a second big alternator under engine. And my engine is one of those they do this for. Also I have a lot of space at the back of the engine to fit this.

I will investigate further.

There is still a redundancy issue, but as the boat will recharge even with a busted engine so long as it can move and the gear box can go to neutral, the issue is much reduced. I might trust this alone for power. Recharge fast when using the engine, recharge underway. Even once we return this is useful for silent motoring and saving wear on the engine.

The guardrail panels are cheap, easy to fit and could be removed later without much faff. One reservation I had with them is that where my aft cleat is they would interfere with mooring but I recently fixed that with a fairlead. The only other concern is vulnerability to damage in harbour and under sail, but panels are cheap and their are solara panels you can take a hammer to. Might rethink this also as I could fit four of these and have 400-500W for not much money.

[Jammer]

Originally Posted by Na Mara

Diesel generators are as expensive as the EFOY Hybrid system and that is without the LFP batteries, they are also not primarily battery chargers as phantomracer points out. They are a sledge hammer to crack my nut.

I worked out the cost per kwh from a fuel cell as $12. For diesel generators it is $0.80. The difference is mainly due to the low kwh life of the fuel cells. An EFOY fuel cell will deliver 500 kwh over its life (or less depending on model). A small diesel will deliver 30,000 kwh over its life.

4. This is another item that would need regularly serviced (filters checked and changed regularly, oil checked and changed regularly, etc.). The EFOY is a fit and forget item, just change the bottles over so often when the system tells you to.

Nothing on a cruising boat is "fit and forget" except for wall art. Might want to read the EFOY manual a little more closely. They require use of maintenance fluid and some special startup steps when left unused for a while. With occasional use, diesel maintenance is once a year.

[...]Even crossing the Atlantic I would only have to run the engine for 3 hours every 3 days or so.

fwiw it would be the same situation with a diesel genset if you went that route.

But now we hit on the problem: lack of redundancy. If the engine goes on the fritz in the middle of the pond, or somewhere where we cannot get the engine serviced, we are screwed (maybe we could take some folding solar panels for emergencies but you get my point).

Lots of alternatives
- suitcase generator (e.g. Honda EU2200 or similar gasoline/petrol powered)- use a windvane so electricity doesn't matter much
- wind generator
- hydrogenerator
- some solar


Keep in mind that redundant systems aren't necessarily 100% reliable. If your fuel cell packs it in, then what? Rely on the alternator on the propulsion engine?



It would be a rare boat that can't fit some solar, such as a walk-on flexible panel on the foredeck, enough to mitigate the most serious problems.


You also might think harder about likely failures and their consequences. If you lose the engine, are you going to be able to complete the passage only if you have electricity? Is losing the engine more likely than losing the rudder or rig? Are there ways you can reasonably sail without electricity or at least without much of it?

A second is the capital cost of the second alternator with very large liFePo bank needed to make it work optimally. 500Ah of LFP in these parts is about 7500 dollars, the second alternator will be maybe 1-2000 dollars, and all the custom fitting will be about 1000 dollars all in in very rough figure. That is about the same initial capital cost of the fuel cell with smaller LFP bank.

Why would a fuel cell allow a smaller bank?

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Na Mara

Thanks for the reply Dockhead.

I do have space for a small genset in the sound insulated engine bay but:

1. The whole boat runs on 12V and I am a great believer in that. I don't even have a built in inverter, just a couple of plug in ones for guests who bring silly chargers for their phones and laptops. Everything else I have or will have on the boat runs or charges on 12v.Even the TV is 12v.

2. Diesel generators are as expensive as the EFOY Hybrid system and that is without the LFP batteries, they are also not primarily battery chargers as phantomracer points out. They are a sledge hammer to crack my nut.

3. Even if I could easily fit one somewhere where it would be fairly quiet, I don't go sailing to listen to the thrum of diesel engines.

4. This is another item that would need regularly serviced (filters checked and changed regularly, oil checked and changed regularly, etc.). The EFOY is a fit and forget item, just change the bottles over so often when the system tells you to.

Now were I to replace my engine with a hybrid electric, chuck in my gas cooker for induction, fit a washing machine, dishwasher, or any of the other myriad devices needing domestic voltages and amps to run then a diesel generator would definitely make sense. As I'm not doing any of that (How do you get away from everything if you take everything with you?), it doesn't.

Now a high power second alternator for charging a big bank of LFP domestic batteries makes more sense, but I would need to sort out some kind of custom mount for my Yanmar engine. That is not impossible and the engine is overpowered enough that I won't notice the extra load.

Suppose I could solve the mount problem and fit the second alternator (lots of space to the right of the engine to do this in but no mounting bracket). Lets say I fit a 160A alternator and leave the 55A for charging the FLA engine battery. Now lets say I fit 500Ah of lithium batteries giving me 450Ah usable. On most trips we run the engine for about an hour leaving and then again ariving. Thats a total of 300Ah into the batteries each trip. Lets say we use 100 on the average trip. Then we have 200Ah left to tide us over at anchor. That's 4 days for us. That looks really good! Basically, with our low consumption of electrons we would be getting enough into the batteries to meet our needs just using the engine as we normally would. Even crossing the Atlantic I would only have to run the engine for 3 hours every 3 days or so.

But now we hit on the problem: lack of redundancy. If the engine goes on the fritz in the middle of the pond, or somewhere where we cannot get the engine serviced, we are screwed (maybe we could take some folding solar panels for emergencies but you get my point).

Now my engine is a very reliable piece of kit that has never failed to start or go, but it is still an ICE with all the very many moving parts that such systems have.

So there is one reason for having a fuel cell instead of a second alternator: back up energy supply.

A second is the capital cost of the second alternator with very large liFePo bank needed to make it work optimally. 500Ah of LFP in these parts is about 7500 dollars, the second alternator will be maybe 1-2000 dollars, and all the custom fitting will be about 1000 dollars all in in very rough figure. That is about the same initial capital cost of the fuel cell with smaller LFP bank. Now the diesel is a lot cheaper than the methanol even with the inefficiencies of ICE's and I would have to also store methanol aboard (not a big problem in a 43ft pilothouse cruiser), but still that is a lot of money for something that does not give me redundancy in electricity generation. Out there, 2 is 1 and 1 is none. If I am paying 10k for a way to keep my batteries charged, I want that to give me a system that is independent of engine charging.

So I am not going to do the second alternator, despite it meeting my energy requirements perfectly well, for those two reasons: 1 The faff (greater than fuel cell) and cost (equal to fuel cell) of setting up such a system on my boat and 2. The fact that it doesn't give me redundancy in power generation. This latter is extremely important to me as one of my regular crew is a diabetic and so going without refrigeration is not optional.

But nonetheless the powerful second alternator route has a lot going for it if you can fit one and if you aren't going too far offshore.

I suppose I could look into doing both. I would already be fitting 2-300Ah of LFP for the fuel cell hybrid system anyway, the marginal cost of adding the second alternator to the engine over that is maybe 3000 dollars. That is relatively small beer for something that would significantly reduce run time on the feul cell. Indeed, it would mostly pay for itself by doing so within the year long circuit of the Atlantic. It would more than half methanol use and runtime on the feul cell thereby reducing the year cost of that system toward 1500 dollars from 4000.

Hmmmm.

I will look into this further. I am already going to need to contact a motor mechanic to get a belt driven bilge pump fitted, I can ask then what is possible by way of second alternators at the same time.

Thanks for the suggestion Dockhead.

Just a couple of comments:


1. Whether you have an all DC boat or not is not really here or there. Converting between AC and DC on board is a trivial process. Also, there are DC generators.


2. Fuel cell is a beautiful idea, but do the numbers -- how much power do you consume, how many bottles of fuel will you have to carry, what will it cost? Also, will fuel cell running 24/7 even cover your power needs? Most cruisers underestimate the amount of electrical power they use. Certainly, I use tonnes of it on my boat and I could never afford to keep a fuel cell in alcohol which costs as much as fine scotch. If you are really using very little power on a really spartan boat -- wind vane instead of autopilot, no AC consumers, no microwave, no electric kettle, not running radar all the time -- maybe it wouldn't be so bad. But I can't see how the numbers work on an average cruising boat at sea and especially not at anchor.


3. You correctly understood that separate generator plus big alternator on the main engine gives REDUNDANCY, which is really important. I know a couple of different Atlantic crossings which turned into nightmares because the boat lost all power. But if you wanted to produce power with a big alternator and forgo the generator, you could provide redundancy with a petrol/gasoline powered suitcase generator. If you run alkyd fuel through it before storage, and carry a carb kit, you should be able to rely on it working when you need it.



4. You can brew your own DC generator if you have the time. It's not a horrible project; several guys on here have done it. You need a liquid cooled Kubota diesel, a fabricated frame, a jumbo alternator. You can drive your water maker with that, too -- commonly combined. You can even buy a kit, like this one: https://aquamarineinc.net/aquagen.php


5. You don't need huge lithium storage to use a large alternator efficiently. If the nominal capacity is roughly double your realistic daily consumption, then you will only have to run the engine once a day.



6. Note that if your main engine is small, and especially if you have a variable pitch prop, it is fairly easy to overload the engine with a really big alternator. Beware also limitations on front power takeoff especially of Yanmars, which have quite restrictive limitations. But you can control the output of a big alternator with some regulators (including the Balmar) so you could dial it down if co-generating while motoring, and dial it up if you are running the main engine out of gear.


7. Depending on your daily power needs, you might be able to get by with a simple school bus alternator, like a Leece-Neville, 200 or 300 amps nominal. Big advantage of this is that they are really cheap and really easy and cheap to repair. They are so cheap that you can carry an entire spare unit (as I do). These are rated to produce their full nominal output continuously in a hot engine compartment, but I would provide ventilation and derate somewhat through the regulator, if driving lithium.



8. I recommend the simple school bus alternator over a more specialized high output one, like these: https://www.ecotechalternators.com/c...mp-alternator/ although these are objectively finer and better (and more beautiful).



9. Another option is a Humvee military alternator, which can be found sometimes on EBay.



10. A serpentine belt setup will reduce sideloading of the crankshaft and help reduce front main bearing wear.