380 S2: Ripped Out Mooring Cleats

[rabbi]

folks,

I have seen a 380 S2 where the previous owner obviously had some problems mooring the boat. I guess many consider the original cleats and especially the washers under the cleats undersized but this I had not expected:

Several cleats have been ripped straight out of the hull, leaving different levels of damage to the deck / hull structure. The stern and mid cleats seem to have separated fairly easily, the dinghy cleats have taken quite a chunk gelcoat with them.
But the worst und my prime concern is the bow cleat where a letter sized piece of the deck / hull structure has been lost, which includes the section with the hull-deck join.

The damage has been repaired by the sort professionals who use silicone for bedding the cleats...

Obviously this repair is not strucutrally sound, the area shows significant cracks around the cleats again. My guess is they put one layer of fiberglass under the hole, and added filler and gelcoat.


I am interested in knowing if other people have experienced the same issue and if / how they achieved a structurally sound repair.

Thanks,
rabbi

[FSMike]

I'm always interested in learning new stuff.
What exactly is "a letter sized piece"?

[Teknav]

A tear...the size 8 1/2" x 11" (the size of a standard letter)...probably that's what he meant.

Mauritz

[sww914]

You're not going to like this.
Remove the hardware. Grind out all of the damaged fiberglass, as far as it takes to get back to clear glass, not white and broken. Grind a taper, trying to achieve 12:1, you may not be able to but as wide of a bonding area as possible.
Clean it all very well.
You may need to build some "forms" on the inside to hold the new glass. (think of concrete construction, you'll get the idea)
Start rebuilding the glass.
Sand it all flat and smooth. Flat first, then smooth.
Fix the gelcoat or paint as the case may be.
Drill holes for the hardware.
Make big stainless backing plates. Washers didn't work last time, they won't work this time either.
Bed everything the way that you chose. I subscribe to mainesail's methods with butyl tape. In the end you'll do what you want and most methods will work for varying lengths of time.

[roverhi]

If the cleats are an indication of the build quality of the boat, I'd run away from this one. Sounds like the repairs were strictly cosmetic, quick and dirty work to off the boat. The Sillycone sealant alone screams amateur and/or poor quality job. The best fix would be to laminate the decks solid from both sides where the cleats pulled out. Using a core material would leave all the strength where the repair is joined to the surrounding deck. There is no strength from the core material, it's just fill material. Have you had the opportunity to see what the repair looks like from the interior. Wouldn't be surprised if they laminated in the repair from the top side only.

Have heard of the bow cleats being pulled out when a boat was towed by a much larger vessel. Pulling all the cleats out is a new one on me. What did they do, tie really tight at high tide to a fixed pier and end up with the boat hanging by the cleats at low tide??

[hellosailor]

rabbi, you can check with West Epoxy (Gougeon Bros.) for online tech papers, or free phone support, as to what repairs can be done and what they will resist. If the hull is light enough in those areas, you can repair it perfectly but it will simply fail again when the load is high enough. West can probably also advise you as to how far you'll have to go to spread the load far enough to get the strength you want.

Yes, they are experts at this. Yes, they are free. They figure you might just buy their products to follow through with the repair, and the products are pretty good too.

[rabbi]

Originally Posted by Teknav

A tear...the size 8 1/2" x 11" (the size of a standard letter)...probably that's what he meant.

Mauritz

English is not my primary language so bear with me. But yes, a piece has been torn out that has the size of a letter. Or a bit more.

[rabbi]

Originally Posted by sww914

You're not going to like this.
Remove the hardware. Grind out all of the damaged fiberglass, as far as it takes to get back to clear glass, not white and broken. Grind a taper, trying to achieve 12:1, you may not be able to but as wide of a bonding area as possible.
Clean it all very well.
You may need to build some "forms" on the inside to hold the new glass. (think of concrete construction, you'll get the idea)
Start rebuilding the glass.
Sand it all flat and smooth. Flat first, then smooth.
Fix the gelcoat or paint as the case may be.
Drill holes for the hardware.
Make big stainless backing plates. Washers didn't work last time, they won't work this time either.
Bed everything the way that you chose. I subscribe to mainesail's methods with butyl tape. In the end you'll do what you want and most methods will work for varying lengths of time.

That mirrors pretty much what I thought. Thanks for your insight.

However from the lack of "I had that, too" responses it seems a very uncommon damage. Which is also something that I expected, and of course contrary what the broker is telling me.

Thanks again

[rabbi]

Originally Posted by roverhi

Pulling all the cleats out is a new one on me. What did they do, tie really tight at high tide to a fixed pier and end up with the boat hanging by the cleats at low tide??

One side the cleat were pulled out completely, the other side they have been losse with cracked gelcoat underneath.
Broker says this happened during a storm in Corsica but since the boat doesn't show further damage like being thrown onto the pier, I also thought about the tidal problem.

[monte]

interesting rabbi, post some pics if you get a chance. SSW's advice sounds pretty good. I would be trying to get some physical holding down of the patch area as well as the bonding as described, i.e.add several layers of glass on the underside of the deck join. spreading the load outwards as much as possible.
We haven' t had any problems with our cleats. I can imagine some scenarios that might cause that damage like rafting to another boat in bad conditions, towing or tying off to tight in tidal conditions. Actually tying off to a high wall tightly with any swell running could easily do that so maybe the broker is being honest. Also you can consider moving the forward cleat forward by 200-300 mm so the patch isn't going to take as much stress. Keep us updated, it would be nice to see some repair pics as well..

[Talbot]

As well as the taper on the edge of the repair, afterwards I would add some layers underneath that overlap and spread wider in order to strengthen the area. Moving them to a new position clear of the repair also make great sense.

When I installed a midships cleat in my last boat, I used a large metal plate as the reinforcement under the deck.

[monte]

yes, its interesting that the washers didnt pull through on the forward cleat, but a section of glass about the size of what I would consider to be an adequate large metal plate, did. Some pics might clarify. Talbot, what did you bed the plate in to give uniform contact with the deck underside?

[rabbi]

Originally Posted by monte

Actually tying off to a high wall tightly with any swell running could easily do that so maybe the broker is being honest.

Gotcha, a high wall could be the cause!
The other cleats have pretty clear damage areas the size of their washers just as if the cleats had been pulled upward and not sideward, which would have cause more damage I think (just like at the bow cleat).
The last time I had to tie to a high wall was at the time I did my license, so that didn't come to my mind

Originally Posted by monte

Also you can consider moving the forward cleat forward by 200-300 mm so the patch isn't going to take as much stress.

Not much room left as there is a bed for the pulley of the roller furler.

Originally Posted by monte

Keep us updated, it would be nice to see some repair pics as well..

Thats the problem, I only have pictures of the current state of repair, which don't give you any idea of the problem. The broker promised to send pictures of the fresh damage, but so far nothing arrived.

On my own pictures one can only see that some work has been done to the area, but not the extend of the damage. The inside shows a significantly larger area with added glass, however this looks like only one relatively thin layer.

Anyway, since the repair is already cracking and expert chemicals like silicone have been used, I would have to do the repairs again simply for peace of mind.

[rabbi]

Originally Posted by roverhi

If the cleats are an indication of the build quality of the boat, I'd run away from this one.

Its a production boat and you get what you pay for. Lagoons are typically OK, but this one has been treated badly regarding mooring. It has a few other areas of problems, but the only really worrying thing is how to repair that area to gain back original strength, or preferrably much better.

Originally Posted by roverhi

Sounds like the repairs were strictly cosmetic, quick and dirty work to off the boat. The Sillycone sealant alone screams amateur and/or poor quality job. [...]
Have you had the opportunity to see what the repair looks like from the interior. Wouldn't be surprised if they laminated in the repair from the top side only.

What the PO did was at the end just a cosmetical repair, but since he had the insurance pay for it I think this wasn't intentional. He just happened to choose the wrong yard.
Maybe he simply didn't really care anymore, as he was about to buy a new larger Lagoon.

[monte]

rabbi, the cleat can move forward, the turning block is aft of the cleat. Maybe not ideal, but an option. Good luck with the repairs. Is the boat in Corsica now? We are just sailing past, from Elba to Giglio as I type.