U.S. Coast Guard boarding experience (not typical i dont think)

[FamilyVan]

I'm not taking it personally. I worked closely with the USCG for years, they were a pretty professional bunch of guys for the most part. I can say with certainty, they don't run around boarding Canadian (NATO) Yachts in Canadian Waters and their would be diplomatic heck to pay if they did.

Somebody posted a bunch of treaties they do have, and that's cool, I'm sure they're bilateral treaties, but they're not the defacto police of the open sea. It just doesn't work like that.

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[Factor]

Originally Posted by Petrel

As a father of a Coast Guard bording officer I'll remind my son to remove his boots when he is out in 30' seas trying to rescue your sorry butt when your yacht is being torn apart".....I just can't believe some of you "yachtsmen"?

As a former long serving LEO I usually found I was able to tell the difference between situations where I need to go in "boots and all" (pun intended) and where discretion decorum courtesy and respect was a better approach, but thats just me.

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by Factor

As a former long serving LEO I usually found I was able to tell the difference between situations where I need to go in "boots and all" (pun intended) and where discretion decorum courtesy and respect was a better approach, but thats just me.

From the few LEO and similar officers that I have known well enough to discuss such things with, the experienced ones all said that their instincts about threat level in confrontations were pretty accurate. in particular, the Aussie Customs officer that we befriended said that he knew within the first minute of a clearance process whether or not he needed to pry, and that he would "bet the farm" on his accuracy!

Sadly, in the violent USA, one reads of traffic stops where the assessment is indeed wrong, and the unfortunate officer is dead on the side of the road. The possibility of such an outcome leads many LEOs to start out any interaction aggressively, for self protection purposes. This is understandable to me, but does tend to be unpleasant for the innocent when it happens.

And the USCG folks likely fall into the same mind set: assume the worst until proven otherwise. It has been many years since I interacted with them in California waters, but then they were pretty pleasant... if you were. Most of the reports posted in this thread echoed this behavior. Why the subject boarding went to such extremes isn't clear to me, and I doubt if it will ever be cleared up. But, they have the authority to do such things and while one may object to that on various grounds, it is reality, and unlikely to change for the better... so be prepared!

Jim

[ontherocks83]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

. Why the subject boarding went to such extremes isn't clear to me, and I doubt if it will ever be cleared up. But, they have the authority to do such things and while one may object to that on various grounds, it is reality, and unlikely to change for the better... so be prepared!

Jim

This is PURELY speculation and absolutely no judgement or condescending tone is meant by this at all towards natraps or anyone else, but my "assumption"( from something the op said at one point) is that maybe they went to the lengths they did because the op has a record and they automatically assumed the worst about him. I believe they ran background checks first and then did the swabbing after. Now I have no idea what the op's record is nor do I care because the past is the past and I sure as sh^$ am not the same person I was 10 years ago but maybe that might explain their thoroughness.

[dondoo]

Originally Posted by poesch6

I have been a LEO for well over 30 years. One of the comments basically said they should be out chasing real criminals. Ah.... Perhaps we should post pictures of just what exactly a real criminal looks like and exactly what kind of boat they are in so we don't bother the good citizens of Gotham. Having these pictures in hand would certainly cut out a lot of useless time of searching the wrong vessels not alone the inconvenience it has caused the crew and passengers.


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Well gee, so let's just all ASSUME everyone is a criminal first then eh?

[Simonsays]

reading what i wrote there last night.. don't drink and post folks, it's bad!
special apology to Rusty and FV there....

[Ribbit]

Originally Posted by rognvald

Belize,
The Fourth Amendment has been circumvented by Title 14 Section 89 of the US Code dealing with regulation and law enforcement of the USCG for boarding US vessels. For those of you who are familiar with American jurisprudence and the legislation of laws, Congress proposes and passes a bill which is ultimately signed into law by the president . . . by doing so, they have written a law which in my opinion contravenes the 4th Amendment. I believe if it is challenged and there is sufficient money to stay the course, it would be repealed at the highest level(Supreme Court). But then again, what real American would ever believe the Patriot Act could be passed? The times they are a changin' . . . .

Under the Rule of Law, there are no "Law Makers", and there isn't even supposed to be a "Government". The Rule of Law is literal (the words do mean what they say), and everybody is supposed to be 'governed' by the Law - "If the Law makes the King, then the King is subject to the Law" (which is where British 'subject' comes from - it has nothing to do with being a forelock tugging serf).

The Rule of Law denies power, because nobody can be trusted with power, which is the whole point of the following:
"In questions of power then, let no more be heard of confidence in man, but bind him down from mischief by the chains of the Constitution." Thomas Jefferson

This is why we have Legislatures (e.g. the Houses of Parliament in the UK, America's Congress, Senate, and Presidency), and representatives 'Legislate'.

Under the Rule of Law, all legislation must comply with the Law to be 'lawful'. otherwise it is illegal, and void. Nobody is allowed to make "Law", because making Law is the exercising of power, and nobody has any.

Part of this includes the fact that all legislation must be thoroughly debated in the Legislative Body, so that the INTENT of the legislators can be determined by the Courts. If there has been insufficient, or totally absent debate, that legislation is automatically illegal, and void (so no sneaking in legislation in the dead of night).

Otherwise you get the Courts "making it up as they go along" and "thinking that they make Law" which is part of the definition of a lawless State (which is the assumption of the proven lie and despotic tyranny of "Divine Right", where "The Law is what 'we' say it is").

As an aside, this is no different to the self proclaimed Satanist Aleister Crowley's "Do what thou wilt be the whole of the law", and equally disastrous.

In many ways, the approach taken by our employees (it is the Citizens that pay the wages), is placing those such as the Police in impossible situations, where they are compelled to enforce illegal and void legislation to carry out what are basically illegal tax raising measures, which destroys the respect the citizens have for the people they pay to attend full time, to the duties and responsibilities that are also those of every citizen (principles involved in the Hue and Cry for example), not helped by things such as illegal breaching of the Castle Doctrine with illegal entry onto property - which is illegal even with a warrant, believe it or not. A Policeman breaking down a door is an act of war, and he can be lawfully killed (there is plenty of case precedent). Recently in Britain, there was a Policeman dressed in camouflage gear hiding in someone's garden, and he attacked the householder when challenged, and was killed. The householder was RIGHTLY found not guilty of murder in Court.

Under the Common Law, and as confirmed by the 1688 Bill of Rights (which was also granted to America circa 1700 AD, in gratitude for assistance given with the Glorious Revolution of 1688), it is illegal to inflict fines and forfeitures prior to conviction. On the spot fines, wheel clamping etc., are BLATANTLY illegal, yet Policemen are sent out every day with quotas to fill, all for illegal revenue raising.

This will end up with the Police ultimately being unable to function, because the function of the Police depends 100% on the co-operation of their employers, and working with their employers.

The rot has been introduced via Senior Officers that are required to know MUCH better, as a function of their jobs. Which is why the following is in Magna Carta (this is a very old problem, that never ends well):

"We will appoint as justices, constables, sheriffs, or bailiffs only such as know the law of the realm and mean to observe it well."

We approach interesting times, that as history all too clearly demonstrates, will involve massive amounts of payback, plus substantial interest, for those that have taken liberties with inalienable Rights, Liberties, and Freedoms.

Those employed by the Citizen, had better start minding their P's and Q's, start behaving responsibly and carrying out their duties (if they aren't already - you know who you are), yesterday if not sooner.

Because there is a very real "Or Else", that nobody is going to like experiencing.

All lawless States inevitably fail, that failure is usually catastrophic, and it is usually accompanied by great bloodshed (primarily of those that failed in their duties and supported the lawless State).

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

Just for clarity:
The USCG does NOT have the Right or Authority to board foreign flagged vessels in International waters!
They just do it....and nobody challenges them!

Except when your Flag State has a ship boarding agreement.

Proliferation Security Initiative (PSI) Ship Boarding Agreements
105 Participants, Including: Afghanistan, Albania, Andorra, Angola, Antigua and Barbuda, Argentina, Armenia, Australia, Austria, Azerbaijan, Bahamas, Bahrain, Belarus, Belgium, Belize, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Brunei Darussalam, Bulgaria, Cambodia, Canada, Chile, Colombia, Croatia, Cyprus, Czech Republic, Denmark, Djibouti, Dominica, Dominican Republic, El Salvador, Estonia, Fiji, Finland, France, Georgia, Germany, Greece, Holy See, Honduras, Hungary, Iceland, Iraq, Ireland, Israel, Italy, Japan, Jordan, Kazakhstan, Kuwait, Kyrgyzstan, Latvia, Liberia, Libya, Liechtenstein, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Macedonia, Malaysia, Malta, Marshall Islands, Moldova, Mongolia, Montenegro, Morocco, the Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Oman, Panama, Papua New Guinea, Paraguay, Philippines, Poland, Portugal, Qatar, Republic of Korea, Romania, Russia, Samoa, San Marino, Saudi Arabia, Serbia, Singapore, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, Sri Lanka, Saint Lucia, Saint Vincent and the Grenadines, Sweden, Switzerland, Tajikistan, Thailand, Trinidad and Tobago, Tunisia, Turkey, Turkmenistan, Ukraine, United Arab Emirates, United Kingdom, United States, Uzbekistan, Vanuatu, Viet Nam, & Yemen.

➥ Proliferation Security Initiative (PSI) | Treaties & Regimes | NTI

[Delancey]

I dunno.

Did it ever occur to the OP, who complains about how protracted his boarding experience was, that the fact that he started it off by brandishing his firearms may have been a contributing factor to the level of scrutiny he felt he endured?

And that perhaps if he hadn't been so quick to display them that the Coast Guard might have been a lot quicker to let him go about his business?

Displaying guns isn't exactly a friendly way to greet anyone. What do you expect is going to happen when that someone is the USCG?

[farm sail]

Originally Posted by Delancey

I dunno.

Did it ever occur to the OP, who complains about how protracted his boarding experience was, that the fact that he started it off by brandishing his firearms may have been a contributing factor to the level of scrutiny he felt he endured?

And that perhaps if he hadn't been so quick to display them that the Coast Guard might have been a lot quicker to let him go about his business?

Displaying guns isn't exactly a friendly way to greet anyone. What do you expect is going to happen when that someone is the USCG?

it is also quite possible they were targeted for boarding due to their altercation with suspected pirates?

[ontherocks83]

Originally Posted by farm sail

it is also quite possible they were targeted for boarding due to their altercation with suspected pirates?

Pirates happened after the boarding not before.

[undercutter]

Originally Posted by GordMay

Except when your Flag State has a ship boarding agreement.

Proliferation Security Initiative (PSI) Ship Boarding Agreements
105 Participants, Including: Afghanistan, Albania, Andorra, Angola, Antigua and Barbuda, Argentina, Armenia, Australia, Austria, Azerbaijan, Bahamas, Bahrain, Belarus, Belgium, Belize, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Brunei Darussalam, Bulgaria, Cambodia, Canada, Chile, Colombia, Croatia, Cyprus, Czech Republic, Denmark, Djibouti, Dominica, Dominican Republic, El Salvador, Estonia, Fiji, Finland, France, Georgia, Germany, Greece, Holy See, Honduras, Hungary, Iceland, Iraq, Ireland, Israel, Italy, Japan, Jordan, Kazakhstan, Kuwait, Kyrgyzstan, Latvia, Liberia, Libya, Liechtenstein, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Macedonia, Malaysia, Malta, Marshall Islands, Moldova, Mongolia, Montenegro, Morocco, the Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Oman, Panama, Papua New Guinea, Paraguay, Philippines, Poland, Portugal, Qatar, Republic of Korea, Romania, Russia, Samoa, San Marino, Saudi Arabia, Serbia, Singapore, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, Sri Lanka, Saint Lucia, Saint Vincent and the Grenadines, Sweden, Switzerland, Tajikistan, Thailand, Trinidad and Tobago, Tunisia, Turkey, Turkmenistan, Ukraine, United Arab Emirates, United Kingdom, United States, Uzbekistan, Vanuatu, Viet Nam, & Yemen.

➥ Proliferation Security Initiative (PSI) | Treaties & Regimes | NTI

As our boat is presently registered in the Cayman Islands I was thinking about changing that to Canada however I might have to rethink that. Good to know that we would be safe from such an intrusion in International waters.

[farm sail]

Originally Posted by ontherocks83

Pirates happened after the boarding not before.

my bad. with the suspected pirates posted on the thirteenth followed by a coast guard boarding on the sixteenth it looked like just enough time for the cg to have been acting on a complaint. wonder why the 2 incidents where posted out of order???

[ontherocks83]

Originally Posted by farm sail

my bad. with the suspected pirates posted on the thirteenth followed by a coast guard boarding on the sixteenth it looked like just enough time for the cg to have been acting on a complaint. wonder why the 2 incidents where posted out of order???

For the exact same reason why I would have posted them in the same manner. A failed pirate boarding is a lot more exciting and adrenaline inducing then a USCG inspection. If I thwarted a boarding I would be excited to share that information ASAP too.

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

... Nice to see Canada has resisted handing over more of our sovereignty to our mighty neighbours ...

Not entirely.

The U.S. Coast Guard has joined with CBP/USBP, ICE/Homeland Security Investigations, Royal Canadian Mounted Police (RCMP), and the Canada Border Security Agency to strengthen border security between Canada and the United States through a variety of operational programs based upon the U.S.-Canada Beyond the Border Initiative. One of the most visible cooperative initiatives is the Integrated Cross Border Maritime Law Enforcement Ship Rider Program.

This Agreement provides a legal mechanism for the cross-designation of United States and Canadian law enforcement officers, who are empowered to enforce the laws of both countries along the shared maritime border. There are 207 Shiprider-trained and cross-designated officers available to conduct operations (101 U.S. Coast Guard and 106 Canadian officers from RCMP, Windsor Police Service, Niagara Regional Police Service, and Ontario Provincial Police). Since its inception in 2012, Coast Guard and RCMP officers have conducted more than 3,000 hours of regular patrols and over 600 boardings on U.S. and Canadian vessels; an effort that previously could not be undertaken due to lack of jurisdictional authorities.

➥ Written testimony of USCG for a Senate Committee on Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs hearing titled “Securing the Border: Understanding Threats and Strategies for the Maritime Border” | Homeland Security

➥ Integrated Cross-Border Maritime Law Enforcement Operations (Shiprider)