Is Cruisers sailing forum losing it's way

[oldragbaggers]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

This reminds me of the thread about should we encourage people to just go.

Maybe we have a sub category in each area of the forum for threads where you are only allowed to be positive and encouraging...regardless of if the person is about to kill themselves or others, if you are going to post you must tell them it's a great idea.

I would say 80-90% of the negative threads are just trying to point out poorly thought out ideas. Some get out of hand with people having different opinions or humor gets lost in the internet (guilty of both here) but truly just mean responses are not that common.

It is absolutely possible to communicate to someone that they have a bad idea, and why, without being insulting or demeaning. There is a difference between telling someone an idea is ill-conceived and calling them stupid for having the idea. I consider myself a reasonably intelligent person but I have sure had some whoppers of ideas that, looking back on them once I came to my senses made me wonder what the heck ever made me come up with it. Never happened to you?

And I have to say, I agree with MarkJ about the "be nice" rule applying to openly bashing someone's boat. Seriously, most of us have an emotional connection to our boats that goes beyond explaining, born of many hours of lavishing care on it and considerable investment. Our boat is an old one, but have hundreds of hours and (too many) tens of thousands of dollars invested in her. She means a lot to us and will be our home. I have seen posters here refer to other people's boats as "ugly tubs" and I can't imagine that feels too good. It's not a general comment, it's a direct insult, very much like insulting someone's spouse. Not cool at all.

The only posters that I really quickly lose patience (and my sense of decorum) with and have openly called their integrity into question are the ones that have posted that they engage in either practices that are illegal but they don't care because they have figured out how to get away with it, or practices that are irresponsible and/or unsafe and could present health or safety issues for other boaters, and contribute to us being unwelcome in the communities where we live and sail. If it seems they are just ignorant of what they are doing and are open to education then it's all good. If they are callous and uncaring about what they are doing then the gloves are off.

[sailorboy1]

When I was in the Navy we used to say"

"A bitching sailor is a happy sailor"

Just look how happy everyone here is

[RajaNagaLaut]

Originally Posted by Rustic Charm

I don't understand what you want at all

Experiences are not applicable in mono/multi comments; no one to one communication, such as I'm doing now and eliminate the ability to quote as I've just done, and no being funny

What would be left

Ok... I'll take the bait:
Actually, you're not engaging in one-to-one communication... you're quoting someone's comment and broadcasting your view in open forum so one to many...
One-to-one would be if you PM'd the individual.

Mostly I enjoy the serious topics, even the contrary perspectives... thankfully I've never looked at the multi vs mono threads

& yes ... I'm bored to thought I check out the threads

[oldragbaggers]

Originally Posted by boatman61

.. so my testing of the waters in 2010 was done to find his/her 'Depth of Tolerance' to my somewhat blunt lower deck response's.. (and gentle all you Yank's into the Humour of a wider world..nI am pleased to say.. your starting to get the hang of 'Brit' humour at least..)
So... over the years Mods come and go.. sometimes a Mod is picked who is relatively new to the site (active side) and will try the 'New Broom' thing and the regulars have to either give way or resist the 'Nanny State'rs..'
some just leave in short order.. which is a shame.. I miss Coop and some off the old crew.. the site is poorer for it.
A Moderators job is to manage the group and keep order.. it is not to my mind.. his job to try and warp things into his personal ideal..
Its kinda hard when you wake up one morning when and suddenly yesterdays acceptable posts are todays ticket to the Gulag..

Always enjoy your posts, Boatie, and your Brit sense of humor.....maybe especially that.

[Blue Crab]

Originally Posted by oldragbaggers

Always enjoy your posts, Boatie, and your Brit sense of humor.....maybe especially that.

I recently misspelled humor as "humour." Maybe the sun hasn't set on the Empire.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Blue Crab

I recently misspelled humor as "humour." Maybe the sun hasn't set on the Empire.

I doubt it ever really will.. unlike many of the 'Empires' we were never really hated by the masses.. and that I find evident with the ease and relative friendliness with which I can move around certain parts of the world other nationalities may consider dubious.. most citizens members of the Commonwealth have a greater personal sense of comfort in fellow country's for some inexplicable reason.. a sense of alliance.
Else country's would not try to get back in when kicked out.. like Pakistan at least once..
Dunno about the kids tho'..
<<<<<<<<<<<<This sun is definitely setting..

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by oldragbaggers

It is absolutely possible to communicate to someone that they have a bad idea, and why, without being insulting or demeaning. There is a difference between telling someone an idea is ill-conceived and calling them stupid for having the idea. I consider myself a reasonably intelligent person but I have sure had some whoppers of ideas that, looking back on them once I came to my senses made me wonder what the heck ever made me come up with it. Never happened to you?

Of course we shouldn't be insulting or demeaning but the vast majority of negative comments that get called out for being insulting or demeaning I believe actually well meant comments.

The problem is, they are are often responding to a question that is so basic or so outlandish that it's hard not to sound like they are being insulting even though it's not meant that way.

Example: I've lived all my life in Iowa and never been on a boat but I've decided to sail around the world on a 20' bayliner power boat...

It's pretty hard to come up with a response without sounding harsh. Then again a little harshness might actually be a helpful response as that person needs to really think long and hard before proceeding and understand the pitfalls. While this is an exageration, there have been some threads that have come pretty close to this bad.

[Prairie Chicken]

Reminded me of an old joke:

-How to say "f u" with a Southern twang?
-Bless your heart...

A Brit friend told me it took him a short time before he figured out when American's said, Have a nice Day, they were actually saying **. Ever since, I've never heard the phrase without considering the intent behind it.

[Liam Wald]

Originally Posted by StuM

And in my experience, the vast majority of mean responses are the result of frustration caused by repeated "pig-headedness" on the part of the recipient to sound advice/facts they has received from multiple forum members.

You mean like this...

Re: what percentage of asking price would you offer ??
Originally Posted by StuM View Post
50% on a monohull.
100% on a multihull. They are always much better value and well priced initially.

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

... Example: I've lived all my life in Iowa and never been on a boat but I've decided to sail around the world on a 20' bayliner power boat...

It's pretty hard to come up with a response without sounding harsh ...

One of the best ways to avoid personalizing our comments (sounding harsh), is to avoid the second person pronoun ("you") in discussions or arguments. Using the second person implies that the other person is invested in an idea that you oppose, which turns an abstract conversation into a personal one. Avoiding "you" makes it more difficult for a discussion to take a combative turn.

[Terra Nova]

Gord--good point.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by daletournier

Hey Polux, impressive attitude. I suppose everything is relative, I should spend more time over at Sailnet and then come back, I might view CF abit different then...lol.

...

You can take my word on that. On Sailnet I was the OP and the main poster of a thread there had well over 1 million hits about Contemporary Yachts and sail design and that has not prevented that rudeness, bulling and abuse to come, even on that thread, to levels I was not disposed to accept and that even with the best efforts of some moderators, that asked me to stay and to continue with that thread.

I guess that when you establish the level of rudeness that is allowed on a forum, than you have to live with it. Some like it that way, others not and Sail Anarchy is a forum where the ones that post there are comfortable with a great amount of rudeness. Probably they would not like it here.

Like with boats there are tastes for everything and if you don't like it, well, you just have to go away.

I think this thread is important because it makes the moderators more aware of what really members appreciate, are disposed to accept and desire regarding moderation and the level of rudeness allowed.

It is also very interesting that many, that have very few posts, but that are members and obviously read and enjoy the contents of this forum, are posting on this thread, some making statements that would surprise many and that are food for thought.

I believe that those posts can make us all more aware of what others see as rudeness or intimidating and can lead to an eventual modification of attitudes, making posters aware that some would take offense, or will go away, feeling intimated by the tone or the arrogance they see in some replies, that did not meant to have that effect (at least in many cases).

I would make a demand to all those members that are following this thread and are not frequent posters, but follow this forum, to have their say here, namely regarding what they see of positive and negative and eventually the reason why they do not post more.

[first wind]

Originally Posted by Tientos

As a recent newbie to both this and other forums, and as a woman and experienced cruiser,I understand why many women have tuned out. Even newbies are told off for following a dream. Whilst I appreciate a lot of information here, there can be a lot of negativity from perceived male armchair sailors. I was once told off by mods, quite rightly, because the I could not tolerate ignorant comments. With women's groups approaching thousands, it may be time to review both the membership and diversity of this group. We are all supposed to be cruisers supporting each other.


Sent from my iPad using Cruisers Sailing Forum

I agree with your point but, I seriously don't think this is a women's issue. those people rain on any newbie dream, regardless of gender.

I realize there are a lot of people who are activists in one group or another but, you need to think outside of your box sometimes. most issues face the majority of people and not just one special interest group. dividing into factions is one issue I see in just about every sailing site. mono or multi-hull, fin keel l, yada yada yada. our differences are really much smaller than that which unites us.

[first wind]

Originally Posted by OldFrog75

Interesting take. A regular contributor recently went to another site and one of his complaints was his perception of unfettered encouragement of newbies to buy a boat and sail the world.

Like most things, I guess it's all in the eye of the beholder.

i can seriously see her point. I think there is a difference between letting a beginner know exactly what they are taking on and telling them, directly, that they have no business even thinking about it. one is helpful and will help the beginner to make more informed decisions for themselves. the other is just taking a blanket dump on people who may or may not be starting off on the next great adventure of their lives.

you can let a person know what they have ahead of them but, you can't honestly tell a person what they have the capacity to achieve. only they can determine that.

[Island Time O25]

My 2 cents' worth.

Being thick skinned in real life to other people's rudeness (over the years I often received a sage advice in many areas of life from the people whose every second or third word was an expletive so I often now try to separate the messenger from the message) I do not find the so-called online "bullying" to be a real issue, short of of course those situations where people out anonymous posters' real names, addresses, etc and/or show up in person on the people's doorsteps. Come on folks, if you can't handle a few snide, condescending, rude or just plain stupid remarks from a poster hiding behind some avatar and a fictitious name how are you going to handle a North Atlantic storm in a small boat?

As to political correctness and all which it entails, I am with those in this thread who advocate the minimal moderators' intrusion into the threads, again may be only to prevent thread drift or threats of physical kind or some such. Everything else is just a part of human existence - the ribbing, the pontificating, the denigration of others' preferences/choices etc. Having spent my early years in a politically correct totalitarian state (and having had family members actually jailed or threatened with a jail term for a political opinion) I am virulently libertarian and anti-censorship of any kind, including the enforcement of the "be nice rule". But that's me. Others of course have different opinions.

To sum up, CF to me is the greatest compendium of cruising and general nautical knowledge I have found to date. No amount of "bad apples" and nasty posts will change that, other then that such posts may influence some (many?) contributors to that knowledge to leave altogether or at least be less active. And CF being a private venture, albeit a non profit in nature, the cite owners/admins certainly have a stake in keeping the good information flowing in and the nasty stuff to a minimum. And hopefully this thread has moved us a little closer to accomplishing that goal.