Engineless anyone?

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by AndyEss

Having a skulling oar setup to me sounds dandy - as a backup and/or exercise/skill/stubborness option.
Being on open waters with anything much bigger than a Hobie16 cat seems irresponsible to me. Your own safety is your responsibility, but negative effects on other boaters and possibly using first responders when an engine would have assured no problem, is highly egotistical

that is your opinion but there are many people that don't have engines on their boats and saying something like that you just did is downright rude . Man has sailed a lot longer without engines than with. Aside from the fact this thread is for people that choose to go or are considering going engineless.

[stone0302]

Originally Posted by AndyEss

Having a skulling oar setup to me sounds dandy - as a backup and/or exercise/skill/stubborness option.
Being on open waters with anything much bigger than a Hobie16 cat seems irresponsible to me. Your own safety is your responsibility, but negative effects on other boaters and possibly using first responders when an engine would have assured no problem, is highly egotistical

You never let your ego get in the way of skill and good judgment. You never put another boat at risk. You accept responsibility for your own decisions. You don’t put others in danger to bail you out of trouble. You have to know the limitations of your skills and the capabilities of your boat. But that’s true with or without an engine, right?

For me, it’s not about ego. It’s about skill development and practicality. My boat is simple. It’s rugged. It’s easy to maintain—in fact there is nothing I can’t repair. I am never dependent on mechanics or electricians. I built my boat to be sailed without an engine. But I didn’t just take the engine out. She is set up as a wholistic system. You can’t imagine how much more room you have on a boat without an engine, fuel tank, and all the supporting components. Also, you don’t know how good a boat can smell until you eliminate all that stuff.

Re engines AndyEss...an engine, if you are a competent sailor, is a tool. It’s a convenience—not a necessity. That’s not to imply a highly competent sailor should not have an engine. Engineless sailing is a huge inconvience, which often can’t be fully appreciated until experienced. So, absolutely have and use whatever engine you want. But remember, no engine or equipment can assure your safety underway—the most important piece of equipment you have is what’s between your ears.

Boats with engines and all the latest safety gear run aground. They run onto reefs. They collide with other ships in broad daylight. They smash into other boats in marinas. They lose crew members overboard. They are abandoned while still afloat and seaworthy. Relying on an engine and the latest must have gear is what gets a lot of people in to trouble to begin with.

If you can’t handle your boat without an engine, or you simply don’t want to, then by all means you shouldn’t. But just because you can’t do it does not mean others can’t do it, and do it safely—if they are thoughtful, make sound decisions, plan well, excercise good judgmemt, study, practice, and don’t exceed their capabilities.

Having sailed many thousands of miles without an engine, I am quick to say it’s much more difficult than many people think. And while it might sound like a “cool” thing to do when your sitting in a comfortable easy chair it can be aggravatingly inconvenient when you are living it. I would never encourage anyone else to do it. But for those that are competent, and want the challenge, it can be very rewarding. I think it just depends on how you are wired and what you need sailing to provide to you.

Happy sailing—with or without an engine.

[AndyEss]

Originally Posted by newhaul

that is your opinion but there are many people that don't have engines on their boats and saying something like that you just did is downright rude . Man has sailed a lot longer without engines than with. Aside from the fact this thread is for people that choose to go or are considering going engineless.

Yes, man has sailed engineless for millennia- so what?
There are so many watercraft on the seas now that everyone is responsible for each others safety.
7 billion people on this little planet is the difference from millenia ago,
Riding a bicycle on an interstate highway is dangerous not because a bicycle is dangerous- it
just doesn’t match the other traffic moving around it (I’m also a bicycle rider, occasional centuries)
By all means - challenge yourself. Sailing, as many
by choice activities are valuable for this.
Just don’t be smug and superior when you get another boat in trouble or call for help, depriving others of possibly more needed resources.

[Don C L]

I think anyone who has chosen to go engineless has worked out how to do it without being reckless or depending on others to bail them out. It requires more forethought and planning, and yes practice and skill. In my area there are harbors that I often would not be able to enter unless the wind was right or it was dead calm and I could use my oars, BUT my boat is only 29' and 8000# or so. You have to be ready to be happy to remain becalmed at times and definitely be ready to drop the anchor quickly if drawn into a shallow area. And you'll need a good dinghy because you may have to anchor out where others go into a visitor slip. Knowing there is no engine to bail you out of a fix will really sharpen your trip planning. Certainly many of us have had engines that quit and we needed to sail in somewhere and did so without endangering anyone... or we called for a tow from BoatUS. People who plan to be engineless most likely already know they won't be calling for a tow, and have planned for that, unless it's a true emergency. I think it could be argued that folks who have chosen to go engineless are folks who are LESS likely to call on first responders or put others in harm's way because they are far better prepared than those who rely too heavily on engines and/or haven't sharpened their sailing skills.
I am not engineless though, I always consider however how it would be, wherever I go, to be engineless just as a matter of staying prepared, and because I'd still like to do it one of these days when I have plenty of time to be becalmed now and then.

[dwedeking2]

I'm currently engineless on a 40' Morgan OI.

It's not from a conscious decision to be that way but rather because the engine is unreliable and other projects have priority.

When I bought the boat I was moving it from Ft Myers to Jacksonville. The engine started to overheat. I couldn't afford to leave the boat in Miami so finished the trip in super light winds under sail. Best thing I've ever done to improve my sailing skills.

Getting ready to leave Jacksonville a year later, and two days before I had to leave the engine gremlins came back. I lined the boat to an end dock and left on the next good wind. Sailed from Jacksonville to the keys.

My take:

- you learn more sailing skills
- you learn patience
- you pay attention to conditions both in planning and at the time. Bad wind or currents mean you cant go somewhere vs "it will be slow or bumpy"
- your more cautious. You give yourself margin for error.
- it builds your confidence. You go through a variety of situations which turning a key is no longer a solution.

The argument that you put others more at risk or use up vital rescue resources is just silly.

[Telesail]

We recently became suddenly engineless (actually, transmission-less) and had to make split second decision to bail out of entering an anchorage because it was so well sheltered that we would not have been able to sail onto our anchor without risking either the rocky fjord type shore line or drifting onto one of the other boats there. In the event, we had only just enough way to turn back out of the entrance, unfurl the Genoa and catch enough wind to sail away from an unfolding potential wreck.

Two extra hours of sailing to get to the next safe harbor as the sun was setting ensued but we managed to pick up a mooring ball under sail - god bless all the MOB practice we did earlier in our sailing careers - when we found that there was nowhere to anchor that was sheltered from the swells because of all the moorings that had been put down.

I think the point is not that people without engines are more likely to call for emergency support but that people suffering from overconfidence or bad planning risk possible repercussions on themselves and others. I cannot imagine that my insurance premiums would stay the same if I said I was taking the engine out of my boat and I am sure that, if I did, it would make me question the decision to use a low power electric outboard on my tender since it certainly could not be used in an emergency to manoeuvre the mothership...

[stone0302]

Originally Posted by Don C L

Got any photos of your sculling oar set-up?

Don
There are a couple pictures on our website.

Sculling Oar build:
http://www.farreachvoyages.com/projects/scullingdinghyoars.html

Blog entry of new sculling Oar Bracket can be found here: http://https://farreachvoyages.net/2...ock/#more-1244

I have a sculling video I have never posted. I can upload it to our YouTube channel but I need a couple days to get to it.

I’ll try and post a few pictures below unfortunately I don’t need have any stills of the scullingoar in action...exceptthe video. The one of the boat just after completing the bare hull rebuild shows the under body profile with the aperture filled in. As BenZ said in his post, a smooth underbody makes a huge difference I. Performance and maneuverability.

[Don C L]

Originally Posted by stone0302

Don
There are a couple pictures on our website.

Sculling Oar build:
http://www.farreachvoyages.com/projects/scullingdinghyoars.html

Blog entry of new sculling Oar Bracket can be found here: http://https://farreachvoyages.net/2...ock/#more-1244

I have a sculling video I have never posted. I can upload it to our YouTube channel but I need a couple days to get to it.

I’ll try and post a few pictures below unfortunately I don’t need have any stills of the scullingoar in action...exceptthe video. The one of the boat just after completing the bare hull rebuild shows the under body profile with the aperture filled in. As BenZ said in his post, a smooth underbody makes a huge difference I. Performance and maneuverability.

Beautiful boat! And it is a beautiful thing to see that clean, sleek hull. It's one thing I love about mine too. I was talking with my friend who has been a rigger for over 40 years and he was commenting on how much a boat loses in performance by dragging a prop around, even a feathering or folding one in his estimation. In light air especially he was saying some boats will lose a knot.
For some reasons I couldn't view the links you posted.
BTW, what boat is that? The hull looks like a Luders 36. Cape Dory 36 with higher bulwarks?

[Adelie]

Testing in the UK showed that drag from feathering props was barely measurable and for folding props was not measurable.

On my phone so I don’t have the link.

That said, if the folder or featherer is in an aperture, the aperture itself causes significantly more drag than even the feathering prop. Hal Roth on his first “Whisper” filled in the aperture on that boat and offset the prop shaft and used a folding prop to great effect.

[stone0302]

Originally Posted by Adelie

Testing in the UK showed that drag from feathering props was barely measurable and for folding props was not measurable.

On my phone so I don’t have the link.

That said, if the folder or featherer is in an aperture, the aperture itself causes significantly more drag than even the feathering prop. Hal Roth on his first “Whisper” filled in the aperture on that boat and offset the prop shaft and used a folding prop to great effect.

The design that Hal Roth used is exactly the option we are considering. In fact we considered it during the rebuild from 2009-2015. But at that time I did not want the added expense. But it is still a lot of added complication. So we may be headed that way. Just not there yet.

[Don C L]

For those interested, here is the link to the social group:

Cruisers & Sailing Forums - Engineless

[stone0302]

Not a great video of the sculling oar in use but it’s the only one I have.

Now that I am learning how to make, edit, and upload videos I’ll make a better one.

Happy sailing...or sculling!

https://youtu.be/LZS9yw6UH6I

[stone0302]

Not sure why the links are redirecting.

Try these and let me know if it comes up:

Far Reach Voyages Home Page

Also:

http://www.farreachvoyages.net

We also have a you tube channel. Go to you tube and type in Far Reach Voyages.

[Benz]

Originally Posted by Adelie

Testing in the UK showed that drag from feathering props was barely measurable and for folding props was not measurable.

On my phone so I don’t have the link.

That said, if the folder or featherer is in an aperture, the aperture itself causes significantly more drag than even the feathering prop. Hal Roth on his first “Whisper” filled in the aperture on that boat and offset the prop shaft and used a folding prop to great effect.

I was told this too, which is why I filled in the aperture that came with my hull when I finished my boat. I think my rudder is more effective, without a giant hole that lets all the pressure though right where business is done, than ones with a prop cutout. But I haven't sailed any other Cape Georges to find out. Someday....

[OldBawley]

I would not be to sure, I read somewhere that on some smack´s a big hole was made in the forefoot of the keel. Big enough to put your arm through.
It had something to do with going trough the wind. Loose some vacuum behind that huge keel.
The hole was not to pull the boats up the beach although it could be used for that purpose.


An aperture could serve the same goal. Going through the wind better.