FIRE! Fight or Flight?

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

Halon does not put off deadly gases. Halon is the only agent I believe that the FAA recommends for use inside of the cockpit of an airplane.
Putting out the fire, asphyxiating the pilot and crashing into a play school would be a bad thing

Halon is used in Military combat vehicles for the sole reason it can put out a huge flash fire and not kill the inhabitants, and allow them something to breathe while they escape.

I don’t have a clue about NASCAR, likely politically driven would be my guess, not because something else is better.

I was on the flight line in Fleigerhorst (Hanau) Germany when the German officials showed up and confiscated our huge Halon Flight line fire extinguishers. I asked why, and the German proudly smiled and said they are bad for the environment. I asked him didn’t he think that one of these aircraft burning to the ground with all the toxic materials and hundreds of gallons of Jet fuel would be worse?
You have to admire Germans cause you could immediately tell he was contemplating that fact, he came sure he was doing the right thing, and I think left wondering.

If I had my choice it would be CO2. It is easily available for refill. Probably not politically correct.

[a64pilot]

You do have your choice, CO2 can asphyxiate, and is way less effective.
Halon can asphyxiate too of course anything but Oxygen can if in a large enough concentration. Just Halon will extinguish a fire while leaving you enough O2 to breathe, not much else will.
Look at Halotron, about half as effective as Halon, but moreso than CO2 and is politically correct. It was developed as an attempt to replace Halon, first one who does, is going to make a fortune.

[a64pilot]

CO2 should not be politically incorrect. It’s made by distillation I think from the atmosphere, so your sequestering CO2 by putting it in a fire extinguisher, and if you discharge, your merely returning it, not creating it.

[Ike]

Great thread, lots of good info. As a retired Coast Guard officer I have investigated many, many (far too many) boat fires. What some have said about gasoline on boats is so true. If you have a gasoline fuel fire on a boat, it's time to leave. I have seen a number of diesel fires and they were almost all due to bad high pressure hose with pin holes spraying fuel (nicely aerating it) onto hot manifolds, or leaky fittings.

Most boat fires are electrical in origin, but the real catastrophic fires are almost all fuel related. Once the fuel starts feeding the fire your little extinguisher is not going to put it out.

Anyway. I think, and most boating safety people think prevention is the key. It is far easier to prevent the fire than it is to put it out. That's why there are standards, both by law and voluntary to prevent fires. The standards are a three prong approach that exactly reflects the fire triangle. Fuel, heat and oxygen.

Electrical standards are specifically to prevent ignition sources. Fuel standards are there to prevent fuel leaks and ventilation standards are designed to keep the air fuel vapor way below the lower explosive limit (LEL)

So it is imperative that wiring on your boat is installed according to an accepted standard whether it be ABYC, USCG, ISO, Canadian, RCD and so on. They are all basically the same. If you carry passengers for hire then there are even more stringent standards.

Fuel system standards address both gasoline and diesel, and propane, CNG.

Engine compartment ventilation is critical. The most common mistake is installing a hose that meets the Cubic inch (or meter) requirement and then putting in a blower that actually reduces the Cubic feet Per Minute (CFM) out the other end. If the blower connections are smaller than the hose then you have just reduced air flow. Also putting right angle bends can reduce air flow by as much as half. Make sure the output of the ventilation matches the requirement for how many CFM you need to be getting out of the engine compartment. This applies as much to diesels as gas because diesel need lots of air to breath properly.

As for fire fighting equipment, if you have an inboard engine you should invest in a good automatic fixed fire fighting system. I have seen these put out a fire almost immediately. And Halon is still the best if you can get it. Posters here are right about halon. It is also used on ships in berthing spaces, because it puts out the fire but doesn't kill the occupants. CO2 does kill. On the ships I was on in the 60' and 70's we had many spaces with fixed CO2 systems, and the all had warning ssigns and alarms. When the alarm went off you had to get out now, because if you didn't the CO2 would kill you.

Also if you have a diesel and a halon system, it is best if you have either an automatic engine shutoff or a manual one. When the halon goes off that running diesel will just suck it in and blow it out the exhaust. ABYC has a standard for this. I don't know for sure but ISO probably does too. I once (many years ago when halon first came on the market) saw a demo of this at UL. They started a fire in a mock engine room and set off the Halon and the engine just blew it out the exhaust and the fire kept burning. When they did it again and shut the engine office before the Halon went off, the fire was put out. Something to think about.

Anyway I could go on but most of what needs to be said has been said by other posters. Listen to the firefighters. They deal with this stuff daily. They know what they speak of.

Last but not least, if you have to abandon ship, be prepared for it. Have everything you need where you can grab and go. It should be drilled and drilled until it's automatic. That's what professionals do they drill till they can do it in pitch dark without thinking about it. It will save your life. Everyone on board should have a specific job and know how to do it.

[wildcat35]

At what point do you abandon ship and call the insurance company well I guess that depends on how much you have it insured for hopefuly replacement value.
So you can smile as it burns to the water line.
Guess we can add this as a third happy day of a boat owner.....

[thruska]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

Halon does not put off deadly gases. Halon is the only agent I believe that the FAA recommends for use inside of the cockpit of an airplane.
Putting out the fire, asphyxiating the pilot and crashing into a play school would be a bad thing

Halon is used in Military combat vehicles for the sole reason it can put out a huge flash fire and not kill the inhabitants, and allow them something to breathe while they escape.

I don’t have a clue about NASCAR, likely politically driven would be my guess, not because something else is better.

I was on the flight line in Fleigerhorst (Hanau) Germany when the German officials showed up and confiscated our huge Halon Flight line fire extinguishers. I asked why, and the German proudly smiled and said they are bad for the environment. I asked him didn’t he think that one of these aircraft burning to the ground with all the toxic materials and hundreds of gallons of Jet fuel would be worse?
You have to admire Germans cause you could immediately tell he was contemplating that fact, he came sure he was doing the right thing, and I think left wondering.

I stand corrected. Halon is a CFC or ozone predator. So yes politics , environmental, but save it for the military, and passenger airliners per FAA ,not race car drivers. Its not illegal just frowned upon in certain circles. Montreal Protocol covers it from then on. Had a halon extinguisher on my bike.. I wasn't going to piss on my Harley to put out a fire on it. My take is these days everything is political...

[Pelagic]

Wildcat35
What a sad way to think about a boat

[Olddan1943]

No boat is worth a life.
Give it a go with one fire extinguisher as you execute your plan of escape.
IF you are making significant progress with one extinguisher go for two but always, your goal is a safe exit.
Dont put all your PFD in one place. Have an excessive number of PDFs.

[CaptJPMcGuire]

Originally Posted by Hardhead

There are some good points raised here.

As one with no practical experience, how bad is the discharge from a chemical extinguisher in a typical sailboat cabin? Constant coughing and fog? I've heard the housekeeping clean-up is extensive from chemical extinguishers.

On a sail boat many years ago an alcohol stove overflowed and took the flames with it toward the bilge. Therevwas an Atomic 4 down there and that combination would spell desaster!
I emptied a 2# dry chemical extinguisher first onto the liquid I could see flowing toward the bilge then into the bilge, the engine and the stove top. It made one hell of a mess!! The friend I was sailing with was very pissed off and insulting as we argued about what I had done. There was no visable flame and he thought my actions an OVERREACTION. Perhaps it was but although I lost the friendship we’re bothe STILL ALIVE. I’D DO THE SAME THING AGAIN. He who hesitates in an emergency is lost preparedness is the key. Semper Pearatus

[malbert73]

Originally Posted by astokel

I had a galley fire several years ago. I use a non-pressurised alcohol stove. The fire extinguisher was right there and it was out in a few seconds. I learned a few things though:

• The PFDs were forward of the fire
  
• The 10 lb extinguisher only lasted a few seconds
  
• I now have one in the galley, one by the main hatch and one beside the motor.
  

Can I ask how you had a fire with non-pressurized alcohol stove?

[Lihuedooley77]

Great responses from the forum...

Like to add in some actual incidents that I have witnessed or was made aware of.

Most all of were fires or explosions and dealt heavily with skippers responsibility or lack there of.

1. Alcohol Fire: I had just finished up teaching a sailing lesson on a Newport 30, ( 4 sailing club members) docking in the fairway under sail. I stepped off the vessel and tied off the dock lines with proper cleats when I heard loud screams coming from one of our club vessels that was docked in the lagoon. Only about 10 feet away.

Three wives were screaming and running and rummaging around down below on another 30 footer . I ran over and got on board. There was an alcohol stove fire with flames towering up a couple of feet or more.

I turned off the stove valves. I do not fight alcohol stove fires by spraying water. I could use a fire extinguisher but also know the absolute mess that is left and the hours of cleaning the stove, cabin walls, etc.

There was a large beach towel laying up on the cockpit seat. I grabbed the towel, leaned over board and dunked it deep into the harbor water, and stepped below. I dropped the entire soaked towel on top of the stove and instantly SMOTHERED THE MUTHER. Simple, fast, quick, and done deal.

What happened. Three couples, the skipper and his buddies headed over to the super market and told the wives to start the stove. Unlike the husband, the wife of the skipper was not told how to operate the alcohol stove.

She just turned on the valve and alcohol poured into the burner pan. In it poured and she lit it. The fire erupted, and flames shot up and grew quite rapidly. The wives were tearing cabinets and drawers open looking for baking soda to throw on the flames. ( must be kitchen fire fighting...i have no clue on that one )

The hubby had been instructed on the operation of different stoves and fire fighting on his intermediate classes, and a 3 hr long systems class. He did not impart that knowledge to his wife. " Start the stove, we will be right back " and the three hubbies headed to the market .

Skippers responsibility : Total lack of training the crew. Fortunately, no damage, no burns or injuries to the ladies . And no huge mess to clean up if they would have used the fire extinguishers. Splashing water on an alcohol fire would likely just spread the on fire liquid alcohol and more of a problem.
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This next one is a very bad result due to lack of skippers responsibility and the total destruction of a Moorings Bare Boat in the BVI. By one of our members . Some people take the 40 to 50 hrs of training and lessons seriously, and others just get thru and are indifferent.

Moored in one of the BVI anchorage areas there were two couples on a new moorings 40 plus beneteau.

Nearing dinner time, the skipper and the two gals are in the water, swimming and playing next to the vessel. Good times are rolling.

The Brother in law of the skipper is on board and has the duty to get the bbq going and the LNG gas galley stove started.

He has the bbq coals up and flaming on the stern mounted BBQ, and goes below to turn on the gas galley stove. He had turned one one of the gas bottle valves but down below no gas was flowing. Cannot light the burner.

So, he decides to change tanks thinking that the first tank was empty. The BIL has zero training on LNG/CNG stove systems. So, he gets a wrench and tries to unscrew the gas line fitting and attach it to the spare tank.

He cannot get the fitting free on the # 1 tank. No idea about reverse threads. He decides, and he is a big guy, to get more leverage and takes a screw driver and slides it thru the hang up hole at the end of the wrench, and starts putting all his might behind getting that fitting free.

Bam ! He breaks off the fitting from the FULL # 1 tank, gas roars out. And what is going in close proximity . YEP, THE BBQ. Whoosh, BANG ! The tank explodes. The BIL is blown overboard. The bimini is on fire as is the aft section of the vessel.

Flames are spreading. The new 40 ft. plus Benneteau is on fire and burns to the water line. A total loss.

WHAT HAPPENED : The BIL opened the valve of # 1 tank. He immediately went below to light the galley stove. It did not light. The gas did not have time to get through the line to the burner. He thought the tank was empty and decided to change it. It was not empty.

Due to the skipper not training his BIL on GAS STOVES, A brand new vessel was lost, one crew burned. And, later, when I ran into the skipper, I asked him about the incident, and he just shined it on. I had not sailed with nor instructed him on any lessons, and knew nothing about his attitude.

In that situation, I would not have boarded that vessel to fight that fire. If we were moored near by, we would have dropped off and got some sea room up wind, had the crew of that vessel swim to our boat, got them on board and called the moorings and rescue professionals.

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last one is a gas powered motor vessel, in Newport Harbor, approaching a gas dock about 40 yards or less away from our sailing club docks. Did not know the owner nor the vessel.

As the 28 to 30 foot power boat approached the gas docks, maybe 15 yards of, his engine quit. He tried to restart it, and KER - BANG. An explosion blew a hole thru the starboard side of his hull.

That was the owner and skipper, no crew.

I have no knowledge as to what caused the problem, more than likely a fuel leak down below. Proper procedures are to check for fuel leaks and run the blower, take some sniffs with the nose.

Fortunately there was no fire. He he had fore reach enough to continue on to the fuel dock. Left the engine off as the dock master yelled at him Not To
Try a Restart.

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Those are the only instances that could have been or were big deals.

I did, after the fact, board a vessel that had used a fire extinguisher on an alcohol stove fire. What a mess, but they got the fire out. Again, we would SMOTHER IT WITH A SOAKING WET TOWEL.

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These are the only personal experiences with boat fires, very few over many, many years. Thankfully.

Another thing that we do , when we pre inspect the vessel before departure.

One of us will be viewing the engine and engine compartment, the other will start the diesel engine, and we will check for any leaks of any kind . Engine, fuel lines, injectors connections, coolant system, oil, transmission fluid, etc. Before starting, we also check all of the belts, oil, and coolant levels and overall condition of the engine compartment or engine room .

Safe sailing and boating....and have fun !

[Herb Shallcross]

The most important thing to save in a fire is always human life. A fire extinguisher should always be thought of first as an escape device. You should only use one to attack the fire if you have a clear, unobstructed escape path. Fire extinguishers should never be used to get further into danger. They regularly fail, and even when they work properly, they may disappoint in how much they actually can do.

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

CO2 should not be politically incorrect. It’s made by distillation I think from the atmosphere, so your sequestering CO2 by putting it in a fire extinguisher, and if you discharge, your merely returning it, not creating it.

Probably still politically incorrect. It does not need to make sense in order to fall into that category. Anything pressurized will do.

[Toujours]

BoatUS does extensive research into boating safety as part of accident investigations for their policy holders. Here's an article about onboard fires, with a set of related articles at the end.
https://www.boatus.com/magazine/2016...e-now-what.asp

[scottydaum]

Jmitchel is correct!!!
As a Fire Fighter in a past life the very fire real fire I responded to was a 25 foot or so boat with 4 people on board, and a big tank full of gasoline. After it had exploded I vividly remember swimming out to try and rescue the people. It was also my very first experience with grabbing hold of a very badly burned dead person.
Soon we understood there were no survivors, and the task at hand was to get a line on the burning hull to keep it from drifting into a downwind marina full of other boats.
Eventually the rope melted and snapped back, and damn near killed me standing on the beach.
A steel boat is a different story, the steel does not burn but a fiberglass boat is going to burn to the waterline no matter what you do.
I am not afraid of gasoline boats, I own one with an Atomic4 but there are many precautions one needs to take if the fuel is gasoline.
I have a Dry Chemical extinguisher rigged so all I have to do is pull the pin and squeeZe the handle and it fills the engine compartment with Dry Chemical. I have 3 more extinguishers as well. Halon would be better but not in my budget.
I don't have a raft, but have pretty stiff rules about PFD wearing, and store the extra PFDs in a cockpit locker, along with the Ditch Bag so nobody has to go below.
When the time comes to abandon ship, it is important for the Skipper to understand where to point the boat so passengers can safely exit the boat away from the fire, and also for folks to understand how to surface and grab a breathe when fuel floating on the water is on fire.
Oh Well.....so much for just going for a simple boat ride.
And......based on the dead and very badly burned folks I have dealt with, I am pretty sure I would rather drown, than burn to death.
5 uninjured folks in the water, even without a raft, is a bad situation. 4 people in the water, with one burn victim makes the same survival challenge a whole different deal.
How many of us actually have the first aid items on board to even deal with a mildly burned Crewman?
Sorry for the rant......guess it just kind of hit close to home.