Fire extinguisher quandary

[Jammer]

Originally Posted by boatpoker

It does not say that in US Code of Federal Regulations Title 46, SUBPART 25.30 which is the only applicable law in the US.

It's in 46 CFR § 162.028-3, but informal guidance is that they don't care for recreational vessels.



See for example https://wow.uscgaux.info/Uploads_wow..._2022_USCG.pdf

[John_Trusty]

Originally Posted by capt jgw

The "A" in ABC stands for common combustibles that you could use water on. And you're sitting on all the water in the world, which is much more effective than the dry chemical in an ABC.

The problem is getting that water from under you into the cabin and onto the fire. I've (thankfully) never had a fire on a boat, but I would imagine the time to effectively fight a fire before it is out of control is measured in single-digit seconds. If I had to find a bucket or rig the wash-deck hose, I would be swimming before a single drop hit the flames. I keep a fire-blanket and clean 1 kg extinguisher near the most likely source of flames (the galley), and enough BC 5's around to keep the coasties happy. After 10 seconds, my next option is grabbing a deck knife and heading for the dinghy davits!

[Jammer]

I used a glass of water filled from the galley hand pump on the one occasion when I had a fire aboard.

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by Jammer

It's in 46 CFR § 162.028-3, but informal guidance is that they don't care for recreational vessels.



See for example https://wow.uscgaux.info/Uploads_wow..._2022_USCG.pdf

Very strange... I was given a manual of all relevant laws for Canada, US & IMO when I took my five MED certifications. That section is not in the manual and was never mentioned in the courses.

Live and learn, thanks.

[rslifkin]

Originally Posted by John_Trusty

The problem is getting that water from under you into the cabin and onto the fire. I've (thankfully) never had a fire on a boat, but I would imagine the time to effectively fight a fire before it is out of control is measured in single-digit seconds. If I had to find a bucket or rig the wash-deck hose, I would be swimming before a single drop hit the flames. I keep a fire-blanket and clean 1 kg extinguisher near the most likely source of flames (the galley), and enough BC 5's around to keep the coasties happy. After 10 seconds, my next option is grabbing a deck knife and heading for the dinghy davits!

Time is definitely of the essence. In some cases, depending on what's burning, your best bet may be to take an ABC or other suitable extinguisher and knock the fire down, then get some water on it for cooling to prevent re-ignition.

[Ken Pole]

Dunno whether they’re CG-approved but the Element extinguishers are worth considering.

[BlueH2Obound]

Originally Posted by Pete7

Halon has been banned for many years. https://www.firesafe.org.uk/phase-out-of-halons/

Actually, that is not correct. The Montreal Protocol, signed on January 1 1994 banned the MANUFACTURE and import of new Halon because it was found to be an Ozone depleting flouorocarbon, but the sale, installation, and use of existing stocks is perfectly legal in many areas, including all of the United States, Canada, and Mexico. Most countries allow the import of Halon systems if they are installed and not for sale, ie; installed in a boat or aircraft. It is still available in the US (old stock) if you know where to look for it.

Originally Posted by Jammer

The problems with halon extinguishers are the extreme toxicity of the gaseous reaction products when they are used on a fire, the high cost, and the fact that they are considered contraband by customs officials in Europe and elsewhere. The halon substitutes all pose at least some of these problems.

Toxicity only applies to the older style Halon 1211, not the newer 1301, which was first introduced in the United States in 1954. Although they're still out there, I haven't personally seen any Halon 1211 fire extinguisher, or installed system since the early '80's. Our boat has two installed systems, on in the ER, one in the galley, and one hand held. The remainder of boat is protected with Purple K, standard dry chem, or CO2. My order of preference is Halon, CO2, Purple K, and ABC dry chem in that order. If a paper/wood fire, no electric present, I'd go with fresh water if available. In reality, if there is a fire, the closest extinguishing agent to the fire will probably be the one used!

[ranger58sb]

Originally Posted by boatpoker

I have always had ABC. If there is a fire onboard I don't want to have to think if I've got the right chemical, I want to react as fast as possible. I've seen how fast a fire can get beyond control.

Yep, agree. Fire out fast, no matter components. Worry about other stuff afterwards.

-Chris

[ranger58sb]

Originally Posted by tkeithlu

ABC extinguishers qualify for the USCG regs only if they are in the approved marine brackets, and you'll find that the bracket doubles the price.

Seems odd. The plastic mounting brackets that came with ours must have cost at least $.49... nothing that would have justified a major portion of the overall cost.

-Chris

[flee27]

IMO by suggesting a different component than a standard dry ABC extinguisher doesn't mean you have eliminated the ability to put our a fire quickly. Just greatly reducing your clean up efforts and potential for causing more damage.


I know it is a different scenario but is a good example. My dad is a pilot and has built a couple of planes also. An acquaintance built a Vans RV10. This is a 3-5 year (at least), give or take $250K undertaking. The person building the plane had a small fire in his shop (not the plane) where the plane was being built. He put out the fire with a normal dry chemical extinguisher. No big deal until years later when he was nearing the completion of the plane build and was having the airframe inspected. The fire extinguisher residue had started to cause some corrosion on the airframe and it wouldn't pass inspection. He literally was out about a 100K and 2000+ hours of work. All because of the corrosive nature of the dry chemical used in the fire extinguisher.

Personally if I can spend $500ish dollars on a couple of capable fire extinguishers that don't have the issues related to the dry chemicals, I see that as a good deal.

Thanks to all for the info and feedback. This is an important topic and the discussion has been educational.

Foster

[rslifkin]

Originally Posted by flee27

All because of the corrosive nature of the dry chemical used in the fire extinguisher.

That's exactly why when dry chemical is used on or near an airplane, it's typically Purple K. It's only good for B/C fires, but it's far less corrosive than ABC dry chem (which, as you noted, can be quite destructive).

[jordanbigel]

I'm curious about why Halotron has not been mentioned. What category does it fall into? It's not CO2, it's not PurpleK - the extinguishers I have seem to be rated ABC. How does Halotron stack up in terms of corrosiveness compared to dry chemical? We have three of them on board (in addition to an automatic system I the ER using HFC-227). If they are as corrosive as the ABC dry chems discussed above, I am thinking I need something else to use near electronics.

[rslifkin]

Originally Posted by jordanbigel

I'm curious about why Halotron has not been mentioned. What category does it fall into? It's not CO2, it's not PurpleK - the extinguishers I have seem to be rated ABC. How does Halotron stack up in terms of corrosiveness compared to dry chemical? We have three of them on board (in addition to an automatic system I the ER using HFC-227). If they are as corrosive as the ABC dry chems discussed above, I am thinking I need something else to use near electronics.

Halotron is basically a halon replacement. So it falls into the "clean agent" category. They're good for flooding a space like an engine room, or for knocking down an electrical panel fire once the power is cut. But for open-air use in the cabin, they aren't a good choice on a fuel or solid combustibles fire. They'll knock the fire down, but it'll often flare right back up (due to heat) as the agent dissipates into the surrounding air.

[jordanbigel]

Originally Posted by rslifkin

Halotron is basically a halon replacement. So it falls into the "clean agent" category. They're good for flooding a space like an engine room, or for knocking down an electrical panel fire once the power is cut. But for open-air use in the cabin, they aren't a good choice on a fuel or solid combustibles fire. They'll knock the fire down, but it'll often flare right back up (due to heat) as the agent dissipates into the surrounding air.

Interesting - so, good for the nav station and electronics, but not great in the Galley? So what is the preferred type for galley use (I'm thinking grease fire mainly) - I'm guessing that would be the PurpleK (BC) which seem to be advertised specifically for liquid based fires. But I am confused by what I am reading about "PurpleK" - some say they are for class B&C fires, others say the K is for "Class K", and some say they don't actually contain any potassium (which is the K I believe) - so what is the true story? Also, it sounds super corrosive and "forms a crust when heated which is hard to remove"?? I'm thinking my stove would be ruined after using this, which might lead to me hesitating to use it until it is too late. Is there a better galley fire suppressant that is not corrosive?

[rslifkin]

Originally Posted by jordanbigel

Interesting - so, good for the nav station and electronics, but not great in the Galley? So what is the preferred type for galley use (I'm thinking grease fire mainly) - I'm guessing that would be the PurpleK (BC) which seem to be advertised specifically for liquid based fires. But I am confused by what I am reading about "PurpleK" - some say they are for class B&C fires, others say the K is for "Class K", and some say they don't actually contain any potassium (which is the K I believe) - so what is the true story? Also, it sounds super corrosive and "forms a crust when heated which is hard to remove"?? I'm thinking my stove would be ruined after using this, which might lead to me hesitating to use it until it is too late. Is there a better galley fire suppressant that is not corrosive?

The super corrosive and hard to remove crust is typically from an ABC dry chem. As far as alternatives, Purple K would work on a grease fire on a stove, but it's not necessarily the optimal choice. For restaurants, they typically use a class K (wet chemical) extinguisher for a kitchen fire. Purple K is not a class K extinguisher (and I think the naming for Purple K existed before class K extinguishers did).

Class K extinguishers are typically also rated for class A fires (and being wet chemical, they'll function more like a water extinguisher on those fires and provide a cooling effect).

https://resources.impactfireservices...isher-used-for