Fire extinguisher quandary

[rslifkin]

I'll agree that most boat fires won't have 5 - 10 minutes. There's a lot of very flammable stuff on a boat. If fuel (even diesel) gets involved, or you start igniting fiberglass structure, you're most likely done. So regardless of what's burning, you need to stop it before it spreads beyond the initial source and any surrounding less flammable structures (like wood).

[fireman182]

Originally Posted by rslifkin

I'll agree that most boat fires won't have 5 - 10 minutes. There's a lot of very flammable stuff on a boat. If fuel (even diesel) gets involved, or you start igniting fiberglass structure, you're most likely done. So regardless of what's burning, you need to stop it before it spreads beyond the initial source and any surrounding less flammable structures (like wood).

I'm just saying a boat fire that's been allowed to go unnoticed from ignition point and left to grow unabated for 5 - 10 minutes without suppression is beyond the scope of a handheld extinguisher.

Obviously if you catch it at 60 seconds or less, your carelessness is probably the reason it started lol. As is the case with most cooking related fires.

Either way, it still proves my point. Early detection and suppression is the most important factor. Clean up is not. Fancy extinguisher is not.

[Jammer]

Originally Posted by fireman182

I'm not going by fire school. I'm going by 20 years of professional firefighting experience. Big difference

What are you going by?

You guys are all preach the same orthodoxy and it's all based on the same training, same procedures, and same assumptions. You have 10 minutes to put out a fire? Maybe if you have an SCBA and turnout gear. Not if you're a boat owner and have a fire aboard.


I'm going by a background in chemistry and physics, having put out fires in welding and repair facilities, the experience of others who deployed large ABC extinguishers on small class A fires with unsatisfactory results, having seen the results of using a water fire extinguisher on an engine fire on a combine (not supposed to work on a grease fire, is it? But it did), a lifetime habit of using expired fire extinguishers on campfires as a means of learning, and an approach of questioning outdated assumptions.


Anyway, you do your boat your way. I'm not sure the choices matter as much as this thread makes them out to. As the USCG has pointed out in some of their public filings, there isn't much evidence either way on the safety benefits or shortcomings of fire extinguishers on recreational boats. In the absence of solid data we're left to extrapolate from other environments or first principles.

[rslifkin]

Originally Posted by fireman182

I'm just saying a boat fire that's been allowed to go unnoticed from ignition point and left to grow unabated for 5 - 10 minutes without suppression is beyond the scope of a handheld extinguisher.

Obviously if you catch it at 60 seconds or less, your carelessness is probably the reason it started lol. As is the case with most cooking related fires.

Either way, it still proves my point. Early detection and suppression is the most important factor. Clean up is not. Fancy extinguisher is not.

Early detection and action is definitely the most important factor. But depending on where the fire started, extinguisher choice is a secondary factor. I wouldn't want to dump an ABC into the electrical panel unless I had no other choice, as that's going to electrically cripple the boat (and could potentially leave the boat disabled and drifting, depending on the boat in question and the situation). And the collateral damage caused will be huge. Whereas dumping a clean agent in there still won't change the immediate need to kill power, but it'll be a lot easier to sort out the mess and figure out what's damaged and what can safely be powered back on or repaired enough to get you to somewhere further repairs can be made.



The thought of "what do I grab?" in that situation could be helped by placing a suitable clean agent extinguisher near the electrical panel so it's instinctive to grab that one (and you're less likely to grab for it if the fire is elsewhere).

[fireman182]

Originally Posted by Jammer

You guys are all preach the same orthodoxy and it's all based on the same training, same procedures, and same assumptions. You have 10 minutes to put out a fire? Maybe if you have an SCBA and turnout gear. Not if you're a boat owner and have a fire aboard.


I'm going by a background in chemistry and physics, having put out fires in welding and repair facilities, the experience of others who deployed large ABC extinguishers on small class A fires with unsatisfactory results, having seen the results of using a water fire extinguisher on an engine fire on a combine (not supposed to work on a grease fire, is it? But it did), a lifetime habit of using expired fire extinguishers on campfires as a means of learning, and an approach of questioning outdated assumptions.


Anyway, you do your boat your way. I'm not sure the choices matter as much as this thread makes them out to. As the USCG has pointed out in some of their public filings, there isn't much evidence either way on the safety benefits or shortcomings of fire extinguishers on recreational boats. In the absence of solid data we're left to extrapolate from other environments or first principles.

What you said isn't true. Fire tactics are changing all the time and so is the research. Unless you're in the fire service you wouldn't know.

Spreading falsehoods about a profession because you disagree isn't fair or accurate. As an untrained civilian you've put out a few campfires, welding fires and have difficulty using extinguishers. This isn't a reflection on what we do or how we do it.

I'm sure the couple of hours of home hobby fire experience and anecdotal evidence has taught you things, but please don't mistake it for professional firefighting knowledge.

I didn't say "You have 10 minutes to put out a fire?" I said "a boat fire that's been allowed to go unnoticed from ignition point and left to grow unabated for 5 - 10 minutes without suppression is beyond the scope of a handheld extinguisher."

Which is true. If we stick to what I've been saying, your research will lead you to the conclusion I'm probably right.

What do the professional firefighters know anyway? its not like we do this for a living on a daily basis or anything. 🤣

[fireman182]

Originally Posted by rslifkin

Early detection and action is definitely the most important factor. But depending on where the fire started, extinguisher choice is a secondary factor. I wouldn't want to dump an ABC into the electrical panel unless I had no other choice, as that's going to electrically cripple the boat (and could potentially leave the boat disabled and drifting, depending on the boat in question and the situation). And the collateral damage caused will be huge. Whereas dumping a clean agent in there still won't change the immediate need to kill power, but it'll be a lot easier to sort out the mess and figure out what's damaged and what can safely be powered back on or repaired enough to get you to somewhere further repairs can be made.



The thought of "what do I grab?" in that situation could be helped by placing a suitable clean agent extinguisher near the electrical panel so it's instinctive to grab that one (and you're less likely to grab for it if the fire is elsewhere).

You make some valid good points. If I was an professional engine mechanic or marine electrician I would probably have the appropriate extinguishers that limit damage. I think in that situation its a witnessed ignition and de energizing the power and isolating the batteries would be the first priority followed by an apology to the owner ��

As boatpoker pointed out 55% of boat fires are electrical. I didn't fact check that stat but it sounds correct. Similar to car fires. He correctly pointed out conductivity could be an issue. Boats can have large battery banks and inverters. Wires melt together making it nearly unpredictable to know where the current could be without isolating the power and even then that not may not be a guarantee. Not to mention shore power dock fires.

Electrical current could contribute to fire spread and be a problem. Its probably why 55% of boat fires are electrical in the first place. In a perfect world and done correctly electrical fires shouldn't happen in the first place. Something failed. Its not reliable.

Usually the damage is so severe its difficult to investigate the cause. I personally wouldn't use water on a non life hazard energized electrical fire. Why risk it if other options are available?

Obviously if you're smart enough to start your own non oil galley fire or electrical fire and put it out with water in 60 seconds successfully without consequence and not considering better options, you're not proving the point water is a good idea, especially if it was an oil pan fire or an energized electrical fire. It goes without saying this discussion is in regards to an unwitnessed ignition but still detected early enough.

What you're saying makes a lot of sense, however In my experience it doesn't happen that way. Electrical vehicle fires happen very quickly and are rarely salvageable. How would you catch it that fast? Do you keep a smoke detector in the engine room? Could you hear the alarm when running the engine or in rough seas and wind? Are you within ear shot? Could you smell it on a windy day? You may assume its just engine oil burning and delay an inspection? Did it start in the middle of the night while you're asleep? All very unpredictable factors that determine the outcome. It takes me a minutes just to gain access to my engine if I was moving as fast as I could. If I caught the fire at the exact moment of ignition, I'm already 60 seconds behind the 8 ball.

In addition, assuming you have salvaged the electrical system, what functionality do you expect to maintain afterwards? Do you keep an extensive electrical parts supply on hand? Do you have the extinguishers to prevent a reignition of a damaged electrical system?

If you need a fire extinguisher on an electrical fire I'd say the damage is done. I'd let my insurance worry about it. I sail within coast guard or marine rescue reach at all times so being remote and isolated is not a concern.

Out in the open sea and isolated from any near port, I'm not sure there's a good outcome. Pretty hard to find or fix batteries and breaker panels in the middle of nowhere. Putting out the fire and keeping afloat would be my main concern.

[rslifkin]

Originally Posted by fireman182

What you're saying makes a lot of sense, however In my experience it doesn't happen that way. Electrical vehicle fires happen very quickly and are rarely salvageable. How would you catch it that fast? Do you keep a smoke detector in the engine room? Could you hear the alarm when running the engine or in rough seas and wind? Are you within ear shot? Could you smell it on a windy day? You may assume its just engine oil burning and delay an inspection? Did it start in the middle of the night while you're asleep? All very unpredictable factors that determine the outcome. It takes me a minutes just to gain access to my engine if I was moving as fast as I could. If I caught the fire at the exact moment of ignition, I'm already 60 seconds behind the 8 ball.

In addition, assuming you have salvaged the electrical system, what functionality do you expect to maintain afterwards? Do you keep an extensive electrical parts supply on hand? Do you have the extinguishers to prevent a reignition of a damaged electrical system?

If you need a fire extinguisher on an electrical fire I'd say the damage is done. I'd let my insurance worry about it. I sail within coast guard or marine rescue reach at all times so being remote and isolated is not a concern.

Out in the open sea and isolated from any near port, I'm not sure there's a good outcome. Pretty hard to find or fix batteries and breaker panels in the middle of nowhere. Putting out the fire and keeping afloat would be my main concern.

I've seen boats with smoke detectors both in the engine room and behind the electrical panel. And adding those to my own boat is pretty close to the top of the to-do list.



I do carry some electrical supplies aboard, but if the whole panel is toast, there's no recovering from that without outside supplies. But if an electrical fire is caught early when things are smoking and just starting to burn, it likely won't have trashed the whole panel. At that point, it's a matter of get it de-powered and extinguished, and then find out what's damaged and what's not. And figure out whether you can piece enough together from un-damaged components and spare supplies to get the most critical systems working safely.



That early detection is why I really like the smoke detector behind the panel idea. In a confined space like that, it should trigger pretty quickly if things go wrong.

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by rslifkin

That early detection is why I really like the smoke detector behind the panel idea. In a confined space like that, it should trigger pretty quickly if things go wrong.

We've had a smoke detector in behind the electrical panels for a few decades.
We have one in the stateroom and one in the pilothouse but had to remove the one in the saloon/galley as it went off every time we cooked bacon.

I've tried several times to put one in the engine compartment but got too many false alarms.

We have a CO detector in the stateroom and one in the saloon/galley. A couple of times a year we get false alarms from cooking.

[fireman182]

Originally Posted by rslifkin

I've seen boats with smoke detectors both in the engine room and behind the electrical panel. And adding those to my own boat is pretty close to the top of the to-do list.



I do carry some electrical supplies aboard, but if the whole panel is toast, there's no recovering from that without outside supplies. But if an electrical fire is caught early when things are smoking and just starting to burn, it likely won't have trashed the whole panel. At that point, it's a matter of get it de-powered and extinguished, and then find out what's damaged and what's not. And figure out whether you can piece enough together from un-damaged components and spare supplies to get the most critical systems working safely.

That early detection is why I really like the smoke detector behind the panel idea. In a confined space like that, it should trigger pretty quickly if things go wrong.

I think this is a good plan if it works. It is an ideal solution.

I wouldn't trust my electrical ability to get it up and running again. I'd be too concerned about a rekindle and not having enough extinguishers on hand to deal with a secondary fire. I wouldn't be able to sleep at night

People often underestimate the speed of fire and over estimate their ability to fight it.

This video isn't boat related but it shows you how fast you can be overcome by a fire, and unexpectedly.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_oslRNUlxM

[rslifkin]

Originally Posted by fireman182

I wouldn't trust my electrical ability to get it up and running again. I'd be too concerned about a rekindle and not having enough extinguishers on hand to deal with a secondary fire. I wouldn't be able to sleep at night

I wouldn't want to get the whole panel up and running again for exactly that reason. Just salvage enough of the wiring going out to the most critical circuits and probably any still usable breakers to be able to piece something together to power just enough to get the boat to somewhere it could be properly fixed. Anything not critical would stay disconnected. All of the damaged stuff would stay de-powered, and I'd want to find the source of the fault before powering up the repairs.

So in other words, I wouldn't want to turn the system back on, but instead salvage the un-damaged parts to build a temporary system instead.

The other thought is that if the 12v and 120v panels are right next to each other (like on my boat) and the fault is contained to one side of the system, the other would be safe to turn back on once it's confirmed undamaged.

Of course, depending on the nature of the damage and how quickly the problem was caught, it may all be toast anyway.

[captstu]

when I sailed offshore extensively, the boat was fitted with a hell on fire extinguisher system for the engine and multiple hail on fire extinguishers at critical locations.

The theory was you had to defeat the fire or die trying. There was nothing else to do 500 miles offshore.

My sailing today is typically in short with an occasional crossing the Bahamas usually with a buddy boat.

The firefighting requirements are much different.

I will stay and fight a minor grease fire from cooking on the grill if it remains a minor fire.

At that point, I will fight the fire only until my crew and I can safely get off the boat, hopefully on shore.

I intend to meet or exceed all Coast Guard court requirements to preserve insurance but I don’t believe the insurance requires me to sacrifice my life to save the boat.

That changes the decision on what fire extinguishers I carry.

I have two small gas extinguishers located near where I sleep to help my crew and I to get out of the bank and off of the boat.

I have BC extinguisjets located by the door so I could fight my way through a gasoline fire if that should happen.

You must make your individual choice, but I suggest you consider abandoning the boat long before the fire is danger enough to present a loss of life risk.