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Old 07-07-2012, 10:43   #46
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

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Originally Posted by neilpride View Post
I never ear of a single boat doing a circunavigation with out a full set of paper charts of the areas visited, sure electronic charts are a plus, but hey how many of you be in a tricky situation following the gameboy in front of the binacle and wonder if the arrow is following a real clear path, electronic charts , ploters etc.. are aids to the navigation , paper charts are the most acurate aid to plot your position, even the most sophisticated ship bridge use paper charts , now for the OP question, i believe that trust only a single source of information like electronic charts is like playing fool.

7 separate devices with electronic charting, firts time i ear that, you mean 3 laptops, 4 chartploters? and who say paper charts take space onboard?
Appreciate your comments. My experience has been the opposite with fewer and fewer blue water boats carring a comprehensive chart collection these days.
My current boat completed a full circumnavigation in 2002 and I still have all the paper charts on board from that trip, which was without electronic charts. In any one particular area of the world they are not very detailed.
For the record I have 2 chartplotters (helm and chart table) 2 iPads with Navionics ( the licence alows the maps to put on my and my wife's iPad for the one price) 2 laptops which are in still in current use with maxsea and open cpn on and a few older older laptops.
More than most, but many people are accumulating older laptops and tablets as the technology changes.
I am not sure you are correct about the all large ships. Some I believe are now going paperless which given the glacial pace old habits are changed in the maritime industry is remarkable.
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Old 07-07-2012, 10:46   #47
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

If GPS goes down the charts on the chartplotter will still be there to view.Trouble is,that little boat icon,lat/long. will be gone... I like to preview days route with paper chart and guidebook,then use plotter underway.
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Old 07-07-2012, 11:56   #48
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

Ships under SOLAS regulations can use ECDIS software to navigate, however still need a backup in case , the backup can be a second ECDIS device or a portofolio of paper charts , but it depend of the national flag, still many countrys ask ships to have a set of papercharts onboard, but ECDIS are based in Oficial goverment charts and regulations , far away from our $$$$ ploter, i believe in a future we can enjoy the way to sail without a bunch of papercharts , but until this moment im stick to my papercharts just in case.
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Old 07-07-2012, 13:21   #49
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

I just can't believe anyone would go to sea with only electronic charting!! how can you believe that all of what your carrying would not go out if the GPS systems went down !! as it has and which it will again !! As long as I have room I will carry the charts Ive carried since the 50s !!Of course I have new ones also, LOL. Yes we have charting on the wifes puter, and have had for a long time ! but all I use it for is daily cks against my navigation on paper with a hand held, with a back up sexton! worked for me for a LONG time and continue to work for as long as I sail anyway !!Ive asked folks who say this a question, do you only carry one hammer and one screwdriver?? get real !! and be safe for sure !!
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Old 07-07-2012, 13:45   #50
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

Some random thoughts would include that I think we're seeing the results of a generation who grew up using calculators to do their math homework. I wonder what percentage of the new electronic navigators can solve an algabraic equation or compute square roots without a battery?

It's kind of funny to hear people talk about how much room paper charts take up. But not a whisper about the weight of six lead acid batteries, four solar panels, several charge controllers, a wind generator, several laptops, two chartplotters, and a couple of backup GPS systems. What's that come to, about 200 lbs?

Environmental conscience doesn't seem to be factor, either. The carbon footprint and chemicals dumped from the manufacture of all that electronic stuff....

We got hit by lighting just north of Chub Cay a few weeks ago. Among other things, it fried the nav computer and the GPS. We continued onward with a 22 year old handheld Garmin model 75. Every fifteen minutes I would read the lat and long and put a dot on my paper chart. If that last GPS crapped out, I had a hard copy chart with my latest position on it and I had two good compasses and a wristwatch.

A navigator knows where he is on the planet. An electronic navigator has an electronic device that knows where it is on the planet.

Anyone ever do an MTBF on a sheet of paper?

I wonder what percentage of the electronic stuff out there was made in China?
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Old 07-07-2012, 13:45   #51
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

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:how can you believe that all of what your carrying would not go out if the GPS systems went down !! as it has and which it will again !!
It's very easy to test the charting with the GPS not functioning. Just turn the GPS off when it's attached to the chartplotter or disconect the gps from the laptop. In all cases the electronic charting continues to function fully and normally without the GPS.
Electronic charts are not dependent on a functioning GPS.
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Old 07-07-2012, 14:18   #52
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

Toys to amuse and impress, talismans to ease the terrors of the deep, or tools to do a job?

I'm thinking of the likes of James Cook, who sailed into unknown waters and made beautiful and very accurate charts. Or Frank Worsley navigating the James Caird to safety in less than optimal cruising conditions. How about the Vikings and their sunstones (hmmm, some R & D potential there....), and the Polynesian island-hopping canoeists? Captain Bligh and his impromptu dinghy trip? The electronic whizbangs sure are nice, when they work, if you can afford them, and know how to use them. When they break, or when someone OTH decides to turn off GPS and/or Glonass, or the ghosts of Faraday and Tesla laugh at your lightning-fried gadgets, you'd better have plans B thru Z that don't include going overland in your boat, or setting new records drifting about in a glorified orange wading pool and reading the crew list like a menu.

Paper charts mix well with water (for maché or spitballs), bugs think they're tasty, and they fly well in a breeze. Compasses can go on the fritz or simply be read wrong, and magnetic north is always migrating.

If The Lord grants me my wish of building and sailing my dream boat in the fast-disappearing niches of freedom on this cursed rock, I intend to have the compass, charts and a sextant as minimum; with whatever other stuff I can afford and as much knowledge and experience and third-party lessons as I can scrape together...but the more complicated and more "convenient" the stuff, to say nothing of "commercially popular", the less likely I'd stake my vessel, crew and own life on them. The Jones' can scoff and the chandlers sing their siren songs, they won't be in the boat with me. The chart might be wrong (and the electronics use them too...), but it is the hardest for Stowaway Murphy to tamper with and is still the best option, imho.
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Old 07-07-2012, 14:47   #53
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

Luddites!

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Old 07-07-2012, 15:25   #54
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

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Originally Posted by micah719 View Post
Toys to amuse and impress, talismans to ease the terrors of the deep, or tools to do a job?

I'm thinking of the likes of James Cook, who sailed into unknown waters and made beautiful and very accurate charts. Or Frank Worsley navigating the James Caird to safety in less than optimal cruising conditions. How about the Vikings and their sunstones (hmmm, some R & D potential there....), and the Polynesian island-hopping canoeists? Captain Bligh and his impromptu dinghy trip? The electronic whizbangs sure are nice, when they work, if you can afford them, and know how to use them. When they break, or when someone OTH decides to turn off GPS and/or Glonass, or the ghosts of Faraday and Tesla laugh at your lightning-fried gadgets, you'd better have plans B thru Z that don't include going overland in your boat, or setting new records drifting about in a glorified orange wading pool and reading the crew list like a menu.

Paper charts mix well with water (for maché or spitballs), bugs think they're tasty, and they fly well in a breeze. Compasses can go on the fritz or simply be read wrong, and magnetic north is always migrating.

If The Lord grants me my wish of building and sailing my dream boat in the fast-disappearing niches of freedom on this cursed rock, I intend to have the compass, charts and a sextant as minimum; with whatever other stuff I can afford and as much knowledge and experience and third-party lessons as I can scrape together...but the more complicated and more "convenient" the stuff, to say nothing of "commercially popular", the less likely I'd stake my vessel, crew and own life on them. The Jones' can scoff and the chandlers sing their siren songs, they won't be in the boat with me. The chart might be wrong (and the electronics use them too...), but it is the hardest for Stowaway Murphy to tamper with and is still the best option, imho.
Epic!!
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Old 07-07-2012, 16:09   #55
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

What?? One of them new fangled sextants???

Hey, the pollykneesians din't have no stinking sextants. They didn't even have the astrolabe. Buncha gadgets. Navigation ain't been the same since the Italians got involved.


all them early multihullers had were birds, clouds, stars and rumors..
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Old 07-07-2012, 16:20   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canibul
Some random thoughts would include that I think we're seeing the results of a generation who grew up using calculators to do their math homework. I wonder what percentage of the new electronic navigators can solve an algabraic equation or compute square roots without a battery?

It's kind of funny to hear people talk about how much room paper charts take up. But not a whisper about the weight of six lead acid batteries, four solar panels, several charge controllers, a wind generator, several laptops, two chartplotters, and a couple of backup GPS systems.
So glad you said this. On long passages i leave the plotter off for days just cause i dont need it amd dont want to rcover the amphours with running the engine. Same with radar.

So much easier, when you take a full systems view and not just nav view, to write a couple of lines on a paper than to run a plotter.

Sometimes different when coastal sailing but depends on topography/bathyography (sp?) between ports....

Good post thanks for bringing this up!
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Old 07-07-2012, 16:23   #57
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

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Now this funny....apparently driving a car requires GPS to navigate also....watch the narrow off ramp at exit 32, there are ditches on both sides that are incorrectly marked on the old paper charts. ;-)

Do you never drive alone?

Alone, one has to pull over to look at a paper map. No one except you said it's "necessary" for a car. It is a tremendous convenience. If you're opposed to that, don't get one.
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Old 07-07-2012, 16:25   #58
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

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Most of the charting devices like laptops and iPads were purchased primarily for other purposes, so it's difficult to compare costs, but the hardware is getting cheaper. OCPN and navionics (on ipad) are incredible bargains and much cheaper than paper charts if you sail large distances.

If they switch off GPS the electronic charts can still be used. Flat batteries are very unlikely with so many indepent power sources and charging options.
Even without any power input I have 20 hours continous use from the inbuilt batteries in the devices.

It may be cheaper, but I can't afford a chartplotter with a 36" screen, so I want the charts for the bigger picture if nothing else (and that isn't their only use).
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Old 07-07-2012, 16:41   #59
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

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I don't agree with Neoplex but he's entitled to his opinion. And his reproductive organs.
I never suggested otherwise.....
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Old 07-07-2012, 16:48   #60
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

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If GPS goes down the charts on the chartplotter will still be there to view.Trouble is,that little boat icon,lat/long. will be gone... I like to preview days route with paper chart and guidebook,then use plotter underway.
That's what I do, and I have a backup handheld that will at least give me lat/long.
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