Parachute Anchor idea for rode length

[a64pilot]

I have never surfed, not looking forward to it to be truthful, but I believe your 44’ steel Boat will surf in the right conditions.

What about galeriders? I had planned on a smaller one as a back up in case I lost steering and had thought it would work in conditions that didn’t yet warrant the parachute anchor?

[UNCIVILIZED]

For a tire drogue you can use a bridle, it's just that you want to use 2 seperate lines, each having an eye spliced into it, & then shackle the line to a short piece of chain looped through the tire. A benefit of which is that you can alter how much you want the drogue to pull on one side of the boat or the other, even to the point of using it to steer were you to lose your rudder. And of course the bridle effect in a multi is a lot more effective due to their beam, assuming you lead the lines to her stern quarters.

As to drogues, there are heaps of threads on them. Both Jordan Series Drogues, & other types. Plus plenty of other resources, including the Drogue Device Database, for anyone interested in drogues or sea anchors. As there are a lot of case studies & information in there. Including specifications on how big to make attachment chainplates for drogues/chutes for boats of various sizes. And to some degree, thoughts on reinforcing hulls & decks in the vicinity of said chainplates in order to withstand the huge leads that such attachments create.

[maxingout]

Originally Posted by hpeer

Super thread!

A number of questions and comments arise.

Just thinking about our big boat, 44' steel cutter, cc, 37' lwl, 40,000#.

I can't imagine that beast surfing, maybe I'm wrong.
The one time I thought about a drouge I realized the boat was fine and conditions didn't warrent. I, however, was scared. It would have been excessively interesting had things been materially worse. Hopefully I'm much better at controlling the boat now.

Last year we talked with a 70ish gentleman who lost a boat off Hatteras recently. He was making way towards the coast, deployed a drogue, and was then pooped/knocked down which killed his engine and all electronics. He was eventually air lifted off. Too long a story.

The he point is, he felt, in retrospect, that he had deployed the drogue too early. The drogue stopped him and made him susceptible to what occurred. He felt he should have waited longer so that he would have had more forward movement retaining control. Just his thoughts.

I have a drogue, can't recall brand at the moment, possibly Sea Brake. It came with 300' of 7/8" nylon double braid. That seemed a bit meager so I bought 600' more, it am having trouble storing it. I made an aluminum reel, but it's a pain. I also carry 600' of 3/4" floating line.

I've a friend who was on a 39' Ericsson caught in a long gale enroute Nova Scotia to Bermuda. They didn't have a drogue but deployed various warps which they found ineffective. Eventually wrapped a prop during rescue IIRC. They sufffered knock down, injuries, were seeing structural fatigue and were eventually lifted by a freighter.

Every boat behaves differently in a storm.

Catamarans have a huge amount of reserve buoyancy in the stern, and our catamaran has an enclosed cockpit on the stern so boarding seas are not a problem in most storms.

If I had an open cockpit on the stern and seas could easily roll aboard, I would have a different attitude toward using a drogue. Design makes a difference.

Boats without lots of reserve buoyancy in the stern are susceptible to pooping, and drogues are not going to work as well for them. In fact, it might make their situation worse.

Boat's talk to you in a storm. You have to listen to what your boat is telling you.

Does your boat need more directional stability?
Does your boat need less speed?
Does your boat need more speed?
Where is the greatest reserve buoyancy on your boat? The bow or stern?
Do you have low free board or high freeboard in the stern?

The answer to these questions and other questions are different for every boat.

You don't just throw out a drogue without listening to what your boat says. When you see what your boat is doing and how it behaves in the prevailing conditions, it will become clear whether you need a medium pull or strong pull drogue or no drogue at all. It will be clear whether you need a parachute. It will be clear whether your drogue/parachute needs to be on a bridle or a single line.

You just need to get the stuff on board for all contingencies, and listen to what your boat is telling you in the prevailing conditions.

Nobody can tell you ahead of time what you need to do. Ultimately, your boat will tell you what you should do in the prevailing conditions.

[maxingout]

Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED

For a tire drogue you can use a bridle, it's just that you want to use 2 seperate lines, each having an eye spliced into it, & then shackle the line to a short piece of chain looped through the tire. A benefit of which is that you can alter how much you want the drogue to pull on one side of the boat or the other, even to the point of using it to steer were you to lose your rudder. And of course the bridle effect in a multi is a lot more effective due to their beam, assuming you lead the lines to her stern quarters.

As to drogues, there are heaps of threads on them. Both Jordan Series Drogues, & other types. Plus plenty of other resources, including the Drogue Device Database, for anyone interested in drogues or sea anchors. As there are a lot of case studies & information in there. Including specifications on how big to make attachment chainplates for drogues/chutes for boats of various sizes. And to some degree, thoughts on reinforcing hulls & decks in the vicinity of said chainplates in order to withstand the huge leads that such attachments create.

The bridle is a great idea because you can use asymmetric pull to help straighten the boat if the seas are pushing the boat to one side or another. Being able to adjust the pull of the drogue is a great asset.

[maxingout]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

I have never surfed, not looking forward to it to be truthful, but I believe your 44’ steel Boat will surf in the right conditions.

What about galeriders? I had planned on a smaller one as a back up in case I lost steering and had thought it would work in conditions that didn’t yet warrant the parachute anchor?

I actually have a large galerider drogue on board, and I have never used it. I like having lots of options.

If I was going to deploy my galerider drogue, I would use a bridle since I am on a catamaran.

[UNCIVILIZED]

Originally Posted by maxingout

I actually have a large galerider drogue on board, and I have never used it. I like having lots of options.

If I was going to deploy my galerider drogue, I would use a bridle since I am on a catamaran.

The above is good to hear, & for folks to hear it coming from another member. As I commonly state that it's wise to have a few options for slowing the boat by various amounts, specifically, a couple of types of drogues. And it's a theme which you see to some degree in the DDB, especially practiced by other multihull owners.

[hpeer]

Since I'm 66 and have SFB (Sh*t For Brains) and 2 boats I am frequently confused.

The small boat has the sea brake (and a knock off Gale rider).
The BIG boat has a Gale Rider.

Found this interesting article.

https://www.morganscloud.com/2013/06...ile-heaved-to/

I need to do some reading to digest these ideas.

[thinwater]

The simplest bridle for use with drogue in non-survival conditions, where stability and even emergency steering are issues, is to use the spinnaker sheets. Simply leave them in their turning blocks, but deployed aft. You can set this up in a minute, and it is simple to recover or adjust. Not guessing. I've used this rig in gale conditions with several different drogues. Very calming and very adjustable.

Depending on the winches, geometry, and chafe gear, they may be strong enough for survival conditions, but that goes beyond a forum post. See article in Practical Sailor.

[BigBeakie]

The thing I am still pondering for parachute anchor rode length is this,....what technique will allow safe adjustment? I've reconsidered just deploying the full length rode, whatever length that may be 300', 400', 500' because if the storm continues to build and the sea state "matures" to longer wavelengths, the position of the chute needs to be kept in synch with the boats position on the wave.

If the chute rode is attached to a storm bridle, it's not obvious how the rode could be lengthened in as safe a way as possible, given the sea state that would be experienced in a full storm.

Any ideas would be appreciated.


Sent from my iPad using Cruisers Sailing Forum

[Suijin]

Originally Posted by daletournier

While out there I was considering if conditions worsened and speed became an issue I'd have to look at setting the drogue (conditions never got close to that). Being in the cockpit at night, tired, soaking wet in the middle of a strong gale made me realise how hard it would be to get the drogue setup let alone adjust if I felt the need.

Been there, done that, and in the pitch black as tar night where you couldn't see anything outside of the boat. Just the roar of wind and water.

Deployed a Galerider as the wind continued to build and the boat was beginning to surf dangerously. The idea of adjusting it, with the forces at work, even from the cockpit, was unnerving. So the whole rode went out and was not retrieved at all until the weather abated, in daylight.

Get 600'. Deploy 600', if in doubt. Complicating what is a dangerous, high stress (physical for you and the boat, psychological for you) situation is a recipe for things going pear shaped at precisely the wrong time. The only reasons to have two segments are economics and convenience of stowage, neither of which should be primary factors when selecting safety gear.

Relatedly, one of the biggest issues in my mind is what do you do if things deteriorate to a point where it would be safer to be bow to. Turning the boat around in those conditions is difficult at best and impossible at worst. I know there is debate on this subject. Any referrals to the latest thinking on the subject would be appreciated.

As far as deploying a sea anchor just to get some rest, I've always hove-to with always surprisingly good results, but I've never hove to in a cat. It is possible in the same manner as with a mono, and if not how do you do it?

[Privilege]

I have a parachute anchor but have only ever used it as a test in 30kt winds. I've never used a drogue but it seems that if you have one deployed and conditions deteriorate enough that you are considering switching to a parachute, then retrieving the drogue is going to be impossible no matter your technique. It strikes me that if you have Dave's 'Abbot' drogue set-up, with Uncivilized's tire suggestion, then you would never have to cut your line free. All you would need to do is untie one end from the boat and let it go. The tire, small amount of chain and the hose would slip free and it would be relatively easy to pull in the line with no weight on it. I'd be happy to sacrifice $30's worth of chain and hose in survival conditions.

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by Suijin

Been there, done that, and in the pitch black as tar night where you couldn't see anything outside of the boat. Just the roar of wind and water.

Deployed a Galerider as the wind continued to build and the boat was beginning to surf dangerously. The idea of adjusting it, with the forces at work, even from the cockpit, was unnerving. So the whole rode went out and was not retrieved at all until the weather abated, in daylight.

Get 600'. Deploy 600', if in doubt. Complicating what is a dangerous, high stress (physical for you and the boat, psychological for you) situation is a recipe for things going pear shaped at precisely the wrong time. The only reasons to have two segments are economics and convenience of stowage, neither of which should be primary factors when selecting safety gear.

.....

Doesn't Galerider recommend 350ft?

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by Privilege

I have a parachute anchor but have only ever used it as a test in 30kt winds. I've never used a drogue but it seems that if you have one deployed and conditions deteriorate enough that you are considering switching to a parachute, then retrieving the drogue is going to be impossible no matter your technique. It strikes me that if you have Dave's 'Abbot' drogue set-up, with Uncivilized's tire suggestion, then you would never have to cut your line free. All you would need to do is untie one end from the boat and let it go. The tire, small amount of chain and the hose would slip free and it would be relatively easy to pull in the line with no weight on it. I'd be happy to sacrifice $30's worth of chain and hose in survival conditions.

Very valid point. For the majority of us due to the latitudes we sail its unlikely we'd ever experience weather that required more than a drogue. The gale I was in this year which was in high 40's still didn't require a drogue, we were quite comfortable, it would have to be awfully nasty for a drogue not to suffice. The best piece of kit to control the boat is a very reliable strong autopilot, if that doesn't let you down mostly the world is great. Surfed at 16.3k and it controlled the boat fine.

I'm going to make up a version of the of "the abbot drogue" as I believe our standard drogues are often more than we would need, a smaller speed limiting drogue that's easily retrievable I believe would be a good option.

Also something that I haven't seen mentioned is the potential difficulty of letting large amounts of rode run from a heaving, dark, pouring rain deck. 100-200m of rope is alot of rope to have in the cockpit, and very easy for it to get tangled or caught and not run out properly. These were all thoughts I was having while out in the cockpit that night, so much easier in theory.

[UNCIVILIZED]

Originally Posted by daletournier

Also something that I haven't seen mentioned is the potential difficulty of letting large amounts of rode run from a heaving, dark, pouring rain deck. 100-200m of rope is alot of rope to have in the cockpit, and very easy for it to get tangled or caught and not run out properly. These were all thoughts I was having while out in the cockpit that night, so much easier in theory.

Yeah, a thought I've had myself. About which, an idea or three just popped into my head: Time to fire up the stitch bitch gear (sewing machine) & make up some test setups. Thanks for the inspiration catalyst

[hpeer]

I’ve never deployed a drogue, hope it stays that way.

Once in the small boat, 12’-14’ breaking waves, 25 knots of wind behind us, she handled beautiful. Shipped no water. Good control. I got up to 10 knots a couple of times.

Big boat, 35 knots, beating, much smaller waves. Boat was healed hard but very stable, I went back to sleep.

Small boat, 10’ waves behind us, NO wind, rolling 45° port and starboard. Miserable few hours.

In each case the potential to use a drogue was there, had things deteriorated.

I can’t find a Galerider web site with recommendations. Our Galerider has 300’ of 7/8” double braid. I bought it new/secondhand. I have 600’ of 7/8” on a reel. PITA to store. We are heading to the Carribean for a couple of years so I’m inclined to not bring it.

I too would like to hear ways to make up the bridle. I’m reminded of recommendations I’ve seen for using 2 anchors in Labrador where there is a lot of tide and sloping shelf. That is to use a ring with two swivels. But then how to add or remove scope?

Perhaps just deploy the drogue on TWO lines? Or deploy with a 300’ “leader” attached to 2 each 300’ bridle legs?

I’m presuming the idea of a bridle is so that you can adjust the angle of pull some what. Is that really necessary?