Only One Anchor

[seafox]

I noticed that they pulled the Delta on dry sand and the Rochna in wet sand.....What's that all about? Looks a little dishonest to me.

it's called marketing.

[Kanani]

Originally Posted by Steve Pope

After having my plough (French CQR knock off) drag several times in the last 2 years, I have switched to a Rocna 20 and am impressed to date with its ability to hook up almost instantly, including once in a place where I had to reset the plough at least twice before I was satisfied with its holding. It is early days yet but so far for me Craigs claims have substance.

I like the looks of the Rocna and may select it over the CQR. I'm just saying that their advertising looks a lot like the old Bruce anchor tests and seem a bit disingenuous.

I have anchored with my Delta in sand hundreds of times, all over the world and never once had the experience that they show in their video. That tells me that there is something wrong with their test and surely they know that. For that reason alone I would never buy their product. I don't like dishonest advertising.

Their test (draging the anchor over dry sand with a Jeep) is like testing an airplane under-water to prove how well it will fly at high altitude. It just makes no sence at all and is very deceptive IMO. Also, you will notice that when they tested the Rocna, it was done in wet sand. Still not real conditions but certainly closer. Makes one wonder why they didn't test the Delta in wet sand.......HMMMMMMMMMMM!!!!

The fact is, almost any anchor will hook-up in a sandy bottum, almost instantly. That test is insulting.

[seafox]

I saw someone mention, "stearn anchor". I would not recommend using a stearn anchor. IMO, 2 bow anchors, in opposite directions, is far superior. It allows the vessel to keep her bow to the wind, where it belongs. A beam wind can put 10x the strain on your ground tackle.

I disagree. When we anchor in light or no wind the swells turn the boat beam on and you can have a very uncomfortable rocky night. With a small stern anchor the bow can be made to face the swells.

Also in the Marlborough Sounds we regularly use a stern line tied to a tree on similar to tuck out of the wind while on anchor.

[Steve Pope]

Re the Rocna tests: I had the same reaction when I saw the clip of the comparison tests as there apeared to be a difference in the sand / beach where the tests were being carried out. I mentioned this to Gmac who was apparently there at the time and he said that wasn't the case, they all used the same piece of beach. Any way I am impressed with my Rocna so far.

[seafox]

Its a bit like the fatty adverts. The fat photo always has the woman in sloppy clothes, bad hair and no makeup. The photo a week later after taking the wonder pills has her hair and makeup done and great clothes and smiling.

It's just marketing.

[seafox]

Smoke and mirrors. Didn't Peter Jackson direct the Rocna video?

[TAREUA]

I think anyone who has done the La Paz waltz or crammed themselves into the bay at Hiva Oa, knows there is more than one way to anchor with two anchors, even if we have a preference of our own. You have to match the other boats in the anchorage or you will cause a problem.
I am still not prepared to accept the alternate reality that a plow anchor doesn't hold. In three years cruising, after a good set, my CQR never let go. I did sometimes have to hoist and reset when I didn't get a good hook the first time.Perhaps that sort of seamanship is not needed with the newer anchors. The only time one let go was a Fortress off my stern in a little Greek harbor were we were moored bow to.
I would state that I don't think any anchor of any size you can carry aboard will hold you in Pago Pago. Thick mud sandwhiched between layers of plastic bags pretty much leaves big moorings the only way to go. Three boat raft ups in 40knots of wind isn't great, but at least it kept down the smell from the tuna factory!

[Kanani]

Originally Posted by seafox

I disagree. When we anchor in light or no wind the swells turn the boat beam on and you can have a very uncomfortable rocky night. With a small stern anchor the bow can be made to face the swells.

Also in the Marlborough Sounds we regularly use a stern line tied to a tree on similar to tuck out of the wind while on anchor.

Instead of using a stearn anchor to counteract swell, you might like to try running that anchor amidships (maybe to the jib winch). It solves the rolling even better and it is much easier to remove it and take it to the bow if conditions deteriorate.

Using a stearn (or bow) line to a tree or bolder, is not the same as using a stearn "anchor". I did that in Antarctica for 3 weeks in up to 100kts of wind.

I spent a lot of time in NZ. We circumnavigated the South Island in '86 and again in '96. People that sail those waters have to really know what they are doing. I'll never forget the Wednesday night races in Wellington. 50kts of wind and 50 boats out racing. That was the "Bussinesman's" charity event. I was really impressed. One of my favorite places in the world is Golden Bay.

[Kanani]

Originally Posted by Steve Pope

Re the Rocna tests: I had the same reaction when I saw the clip of the comparison tests as there apeared to be a difference in the sand / beach where the tests were being carried out. I mentioned this to Gmac who was apparently there at the time and he said that wasn't the case, they all used the same piece of beach. Any way I am impressed with my Rocna so far.

They may have used the same part of the "Beach" but one must ask one's self........why did they not show the Delta being tried in wet sand?????

No matter what, that test is absolutley ridiculous. Anyone with half a brain can see that the control conditions in that test are extremely poor if not down-right fraudulent.

If they wanted to put out a video showing the superiority of their product, they should have conducted that test on the sea bottom with a boat and indentical chain and chain lengths.

IMO, they didn't do that because they know very well that each tested anchor would test the same in a sandy bottum. It would make a pretty boring video.

[Auspicious]

There is lots of whining about every anchor test I have ever seen. Regardless of the shortfalls (that no one agrees about by the way) the newest anchors like Spade and Rocna do better than Delta that does better in turn than Bruce and CQR. There has to be something to be learned from all that.

[GMac]

Just a clarification on the video -

Indeed I was there during for the video on the Rocna site. It was not directed by Peter Jackson, he was busy at the time chasing an over sized monkey.

As a FYI, it was my camera, Land tractor (not a wossy Jeep), all my anchors and my idea. It just so happened the Rocna lads came in as I was leaving so followed me down. I was actually after some differing data, which I got but the video did show what it shows.

As mentioned above, as much as Peter Jackson wanted to come down he was busy so instead of his somewhat higher photography skill and multi-million dollar gear, you got mine and my small handheld cannon machine. Do I know much above this movie film thing re angles and dangles? As you can see in the video the answer is No.

I can assure you all - All anchors were pulled in the same bottom and no jiggery pokery was undertaken except on one anchor as we could not believe the loads were so low. It may appear there is wet and dry but if you see the entire video you will see that in fact all were pretty much the same.

If you think I'm acting for Rocna please read previous posts and you'll soon see that if I was, I'd be well 'You're Fired' by now. Yes I sell Rocnas but I also are the local agent for Spade, sell the entire Manson range inc the Supreme, Deltas and many more.

Big apologies for my lack of photography skills but that was not intended to be a anchor test as you think of them, was not Rocna driven and was straight up. If it wasn't it would have defeated the purpose I wanted.

I said Rocna could use the raw video and they edited as they saw fit to what you see.

Think what you may but don't go Craig or anyone really for making a dodgy 'anchor test' video, no one did. You can go people, well me, for lacking video making skills.

The only thing you can complain, if you so desire, to Rocna about is the video is editing.

[Therapy]

Originally Posted by GMac

Just a clarification on the video -




The only thing you can complain, if you so desire, to Rocna about is the video is editing.

Will take you at your word.
They are selling a lot of expensive Rocna's.
If it is as good as they say then they could easily afford a real world test.
But if they did then it would be done by them and "foul" would be called.
It may be up to Practical Sailor I guess, huh?

PS hey FlyBri, how is it working for you?

[Kanani]

Originally Posted by GMac

Just a clarification on the video -

Indeed I was there during for the video on the Rocna site. It was not directed by Peter Jackson, he was busy at the time chasing an over sized monkey.

As a FYI, it was my camera, Land tractor (not a wossy Jeep), all my anchors and my idea. It just so happened the Rocna lads came in as I was leaving so followed me down. I was actually after some differing data, which I got but the video did show what it shows.

As mentioned above, as much as Peter Jackson wanted to come down he was busy so instead of his somewhat higher photography skill and multi-million dollar gear, you got mine and my small handheld cannon machine. Do I know much above this movie film thing re angles and dangles? As you can see in the video the answer is No.

I can assure you all - All anchors were pulled in the same bottom and no jiggery pokery was undertaken except on one anchor as we could not believe the loads were so low. It may appear there is wet and dry but if you see the entire video you will see that in fact all were pretty much the same.

If you think I'm acting for Rocna please read previous posts and you'll soon see that if I was, I'd be well 'You're Fired' by now. Yes I sell Rocnas but I also are the local agent for Spade, sell the entire Manson range inc the Supreme, Deltas and many more.

Big apologies for my lack of photography skills but that was not intended to be a anchor test as you think of them, was not Rocna driven and was straight up. If it wasn't it would have defeated the purpose I wanted.

I said Rocna could use the raw video and they edited as they saw fit to what you see.

Think what you may but don't go Craig or anyone really for making a dodgy 'anchor test' video, no one did. You can go people, well me, for lacking video making skills.

The only thing you can complain, if you so desire, to Rocna about is the video is editing.

No complaint on your video skills. No complaint about you being excited about your anchor (it actually looks like a good anchor). No complaint about the tow vehicle.

My only concern is that a manufacturer would use something as amateurish (You're not a the US Coast Gaurd or a private testing lab) as that to promote a product that sailors use as "Life Saving" gear. No offense to you at all. I think that you did the best you could but you know as well as any of us here that ANY anchor will almost immedialety dig-in in a soft sand sea bed (maybe not a beach).

We're not talking about "Millions$" in equipment to do a real-world test. 1 underwater camera, 1 diver, 1 boat, some chain and a bunch of anchors. Then again, I get the feeling that these people may have to rent a boat.

I saw a similar test that Bruce put on at West Marine back in the 80's I bought the stupid piece of junk and that is the worst holding anchor that I have ever used. It digs right into soft sand (as any will) but when the stuff hits the fan, it drug and I was miffed (even with 10:1 scope). I sold it. I bought my Delta and never had an issue except that it is hard to set in hard mud. The only way that a Bruce will hold in severe conditions is if it wedges between two big rocks. It doesn't work at all in mud or any thick/slick bottum (unless there is no wind).

[craigsmith]

Originally Posted by Kanani

They may have used the same part of the "Beach" but one must ask one's self........why did they not show the Delta being tried in wet sand?????

No matter even that the video doesn't even show the Delta being tested, despite your repeated statements that it does?

Perhaps you're confused with something else.

[craigsmith]

Originally Posted by Celestialsailor

Example:-"There is an interesting comparison test of anchors in the October issue of SAIL magazine. All the usual anchor suspects are put through their paces but what stands out is the very poor performance of traditional anchors, particularly the CQR, against more modern designs like the Rocna and SPADE. The testers at SAIL were surprised. We were not, having dragged a CQR around half the periphery of the Atlantic basin".

Thanks for summarizing John's article Celestial, I think you got the basic point. Well done.

Originally Posted by Therapy

They are selling a lot of expensive Rocna's.
If it is as good as they say then they could easily afford a real world test.
But if they did then it would be done by them and "foul" would be called.

This is a good point. Even should Mr. Jackson choose to donate his time (would ya like a free anchor, Peter?), it wouldn't make the slightest bit of difference - in fact it would probably be too our detriment, with everyone howling that it was too slick and couldn't possibly be real, after all CQRs don't do that do they?!

Originally Posted by Auspicious

There is lots of whining about every anchor test I have ever seen. Regardless of the shortfalls (that no one agrees about by the way) the newest anchors like Spade and Rocna do better than Delta that does better in turn than Bruce and CQR. There has to be something to be learned from all that.

What's depressing is the continued popularity of the CQR. Every single anchor on this poll above is superior in just about every way (including price and value for money!) to the CQR. That such a poll still does not reflect this reality is a terrible testimony to something that I can't quite articulate. That even the Delta and Spade lag behind should give cause for concern to everyone who has others anchoring upwind of them...