Only One Anchor

[Viking Sailor]

I just did a quick walk around the marina and counted the types of anchors on boats that IMHO could go cruising. The list includes all anchors that were visible from the dock. I did not try to determine who manufactured the anchors.

1) Flxed Plow (Delta) 6
2) Claw (Bruce) 12
3) Fluke (Danforth) 14
4) Hinged Plow (CQR) 38
5) Fisherman 1

I didn't see any Bugel, Rocna, Spade, Manson Supreme, or Hydrobubble types.

What struck me the most was how under anchored a large number of these boats were. I have come to believe that the minimum sized anchor should be at least 50 lbs. Whenever I hear or read about someone liking there anchor and not dragging it seems the anchor is over 50 lbs.

[GMac]

The anchor mix you posted would be quite similar to what we would see except you'd swap the number of Fluke anchor to a mix of the newer ones. You see very very few here using flat anchors as primaries. Maybe a few more Deltas and a few less Bruce types but otherwise reasonably similar in ratios.

Here you would see lots of Supreme, Rocna and a noticeable number of Spades with the odd Bugel (almost 99% being knock-offs). Yet to see a Hydrobubble even though I know there is a couple somewhere here. A smattering of Sarcas. I'm talking boats capable of 'cruising' not 20-25ft fizzies.

The new ones are now the biggest growth area by a long shot. In the last year or 2 our Plow sales have fallen off and have been replaced by Supremes, Rocnas and Spades. A lot of sales for one has to do with cost, the Supreme being cheaper than plows but most has to do with performance. The newies have been on the market and in use for a few years now and we get many punters in saying "I want a XXX as my YYY is giving me grief and my mate has a XXX and thinks it's the bees knees". A XXX is 90% of the time a Supreme and/or Rocna.

I think once the newies get more established and the chatter starts to come back from local users in your area you'll see their numbers start to grow very fast. That's exactly what's happened here. You also have to wait for the old anchors to wear out or be lost as most do work so why replace them, sort of thing. We supply a lot of new builds and easy 75% of those now go Supreme or Rocna and on bigger cruisers & multis Spades as well, where 3-4 years ago it was plows and some Sarcas.

Personally I'd never use a plow style anchor again, just can't see the point when the newies do perform so much better. I certainly can see why so people stay with Plows, Deltas, Bruce and the other older ones though. For many it's just a simple case of 'It's not broken so why fix it'. Hard to argue against that logic.

The bottom line is we sell at least 50% of our anchors to a person who has a budget in mind so price is still the biggest factor in anchor choice. Talking cruisers only, price is still a very big factor but performance is right there with it, maybe a smidgen above it. There is another new anchor due here shortly which is noticably cheaper again than the Supreme so I'd expect that to be a big seller. So we'll see if my thinking is correct.

It is now very unusual to sell a plow to a serious cruiser. Many still looking for a Bruce or Delta but most now straight into Supreme / Spade or Rocna. A fair few fortress's but 98% of those are for secondary only. Many 2nds are alloy Spades as they are cheaper than a Fortress.

[craigsmith]

Originally Posted by GMac

Personally I'd never use a plow style anchor again, just can't see the point when the newies do perform so much better. I certainly can see why so people stay with Plows, Deltas, Bruce and the other older ones though. For many it's just a simple case of 'It's not broken so why fix it'. Hard to argue against that logic.

Oh I dunno, I can think of a few ways

For instance, how can you argue that the "newies do perform so much better" in the same paragraph as "it's not broken so why fix it"? That's just bet-hedging.

The issue for your average customer who tries to avoid winds above 30 knots is that they don't know it's "broken", and then they find out the hard way.

[TAREUA]

GMac that was interesting info. Cost is a big part of outfitting your boat. Most of us cruisers have budgets. If money isn’t a problem because you are a rich guy, why replace anything? Just order a new boat. Those of us who are sadly, non-rich, have to spend the money we do have as wisely as possible. Is it really better, if you use the anchor(s) you have properly, and they work for you, to upgrade them rather than to spend your money on another piece of gear that is not working properly? My boat motor is strong, reliable, and old. Could I get a new one for $20,000 that will have improvements? I would hope so, but I don’t think that is the best use of my limited resources. If putting the best boat together that you can, with limited funds, that allows you to go to sea with confidence, and with money left over for food, is hedging your bets, fair enough.
Quick anchoring story: Going up the Red Sea in the late 90’s three of us stopped at an anchorage in southern Egypt called Ras Banas. It was protected about 270 degrees, but at night a storm came in from the south with 30-40kts of wind and grew to have steady six foot rollers. Two forty foot boats lost 3 anchors between them, one having to stand under motor for a few hours before dawn so they could power out of the entrance. I got stuck there for three days with a fractured fuel line, and didn’t lose my 30’ boat or my anchor. Nothing to do with what our anchors were, or our experience level. The boat that lost two anchors was a Kiwi boat on their second circumnavigation. In many conversations over cocktails later (safely in the Med), we came to the conclusion that they lost their anchors and I didn’t, because I had only sixty feet of chain and then went to 200’ of nylon, where they had all chain, and used snubbers that were too short and not stretchy. The anchors were well stuck, but something under those conditions had to give.
Sailing in general is way more complicated than saying ‘buy the latest gizmo or you’ll be sorry’.

[GMac]

For instance, how can you argue that the "newies do perform so much better" in the same paragraph as "it's not broken so why fix it"? That's just bet-hedging.

I was looking at a Ferrari yesterday on the way to buy a new boat toilet. The Ferrari was so sexy looking in Red, corners like a greyhound, sticks to the road like a Possum after being nailed by a 40t truck, pull the chicks like you wouldn't believe, has spectacular performance and a pile safer than most existing cars on the road. Everyone should have one though for the safety aspect alone. As my dodgy Toymotor Land Tractor does actually get me from A to B, even with the known limitations it does have and I have to work around, I'll have to spend my finite quantity of money on the dunny. As much as my wife likes Ferraris she hates buckets more.

The same thing. (I think. It's a bugger discussing this with you when I wasn't allowed into English class )

Anchors are a mission critical bit of boat gear and in no form what so ever would I suggest someone using one they know is unsafe, that is just bloody stupid. Sadly Craig the CQR and a limited number of CQR knock-offs are not unsafe if sized right, used in conjunction with the users grey matter and matched to a good rode. History has proven exactly that.

Are there better anchors though? Absolutely, of that there is no question.

Interesting post there TAREUA. I often see people with a 2mt snubber and wonder "Why would you bother with that? Get a decent length before you find out why you need one". Discussing Rope V's chain rodes is another whole kettle of fish we shouldn't go into here. Needless to say all chain is good and has been proven so BUT again only when used properly with the limitations known and allowances made for them.

What is good though is we have been promoting the use of snubbers for many years and it's finally starting to get through. Our version of West Marine has just started stocking snubbers due to demand. I'm not sure most of the staff know what they are for but at least a punter who does can get one easier now.

[Kiwikat]

Originally Posted by GMac

I often see people with a 2mt snubber and wonder "Why would you bother with that? Get a decent length before you find out why you need one" .

With an all chain anchor any movement over the seabed will vibrate up through the chain to the stem fitting and amplify through the hull on our boat. The 2 mtr snubber simply enables the boat's occupants to get a good nights sleep .

Tareua's experience is a different kettle of fish altogether and a lesson well worth remembering!


cheers

[craigsmith]

Originally Posted by GMac

I was looking at a Ferrari yesterday on the way to buy a new boat toilet. The Ferrari was so sexy looking in Red, corners like a greyhound, sticks to the road like a Possum after being nailed by a 40t truck, pull the chicks like you wouldn't believe, has spectacular performance and a pile safer than most existing cars on the road. Everyone should have one though for the safety aspect alone. As my dodgy Toymotor Land Tractor does actually get me from A to B, even with the known limitations it does have and I have to work around, I'll have to spend my finite quantity of money on the dunny. As much as my wife likes Ferraris she hates buckets more.

The same thing. (I think. It's a bugger discussing this with you when I wasn't allowed into English class )

It's not the same thing. Although I'm glad you think your Rocna helps pull the chicks. In fact your Toymota (think that's how it's spelt? *) is probably safer, so you've got it back to front... anyway anchors aren't cars, there aren't the complex factors and varying requirements. It's a single scale of "how well it works". More of that is better and safer. Then, it's either good enough, or it's not. The CQR is not, as demonstrated rather nicely by my anchor-dragged-and-boat-lost reference. Google turns out a pile more.

If you want to use your parallel, it's like the Toyota is perfectly okay. Until you need to go fast. And not going fast is going to sink your car or hurt you. Then you're in trouble.

* Toybota in your case surely, since you have a habit of getting stuck on beaches below the high water level. Can yours do this?

Originally Posted by GMac

Anchors are a mission critical bit of boat gear and in no form what so ever would I suggest someone using one they know is unsafe, that is just bloody stupid. Sadly Craig the CQR and a limited number of CQR knock-offs are not unsafe if sized right, used in conjunction with the users grey matter and matched to a good rode. History has proven exactly that.

I would say enough boats have had problems with CQRs, even serious disasters resulting, for the exact opposite to be the case. Not every boat has to drag onto the rocks for that case to be proven...

[GMac]

Damn I thought I had it closer than that. Damn again I can't even spell made up words, that's a bit sad

Obviously there has been many incidents with CQR types as there is masses of them out there. Surely you are not implying any specific anchor will never do similar things? You would have to have a humongous pair of things swinging between your legs if you answer Yes to that.

I'll try the car thing again (he says gingerly) Toymota Corollas have the highest rate of crashes here. Why? There is piles more of them on the road than anything else. Does it make them unsafe though? Not really if used wisely. Is there any other car on the road that can't hit a lamp post at speed? Nope, except my Land Tractor maybe. 0 to 100 in a snappy 354 seconds odd whether I'm towing a house or not.

Yeah, that Top Gear thing was magnificent. I was quite surprised at how far they actually got in the end. They have a real fun job, I want it

Opps, My Land tractors safety rating is piss poor really and I should be dead looking at the numbers. Mind you hitting a solid object at 100k or 200k would give pretty much the same result I suspect. If you're going to go out in a blaze of glory why not a Ferrari, the good looking corpses thing maybe.

[Steve Pope]

Have just aquired a Rocna 20, I'm already feeling confident that it wont drag at least as far as my (french copy) CQR does / did, or, if the promotions are to be believed never to drag again. With the mention of snubbers I come from the school that they are used primarily to allow you a quiet nights sleep,(in a suspect anchorage I don't use one as I can tell from the chain noise as to whether the anchor is holding adequately and to date accurately) what is the reccommended length of snubber to have when used on an 8 tonne yacht as a shock load reducer and what material (nylon? polyester? polyprop?) I note that Craig seems to promote polyester over nylon.

[GMac]

Snubbers in Nylon please Steve
My 1st choice would be the Octiplait/ Brait or 8 Braid as it's called in your bit of paradise.
No way never don't do it or go there with ployprop.
Being a Multi you'd be going with a bridle I'm guessing. That may dictate the rough lengths you'll have.
Basically longer is better than shorter.

Short is OK as a noise reducer but snubbers like a bit of length for best performance.

Well done on the buy price of your anchor as well. Good spotting and saving.

[craigsmith]

Originally Posted by GMac

Obviously there has been many incidents with CQR types as there is masses of them out there. Surely you are not implying any specific anchor will never do similar things? You would have to have a humongous pair of things swinging between your legs if you answer Yes to that.

Nope, it's because the CQR doesn't work very well. Ask all the folk who have had near misses, or proper disasters like the couple referenced above, because their plows didn't live up to expectations. And yes absolutely, there are lots of (bad) things a plow does that certain others cannot and will never...
For your part you're coming close to claiming there's no difference between anchor types and it really doesn't matter what's used. Is that your message?

Originally Posted by GMac

I'll try the car thing again (he says gingerly) Toymota Corollas have the highest rate of crashes here. Why? There is piles more of them on the road than anything else. Does it make them unsafe though? Not really if used wisely. Is there any other car on the road that can't hit a lamp post at speed? Nope, except my Land Tractor maybe. 0 to 100 in a snappy 354 seconds odd whether I'm towing a house or not.

This makes no sense. Your parallel is silly.
Anyway if Corollas have the highest crash rate, then it says either they're less road-worthy cars or the people that buy them tend to be bad drivers, yes... it has nothing to do with how many there are on the road, so long as all others are present in statistically significant in numbers. 'Rate' implies a per vehicle statistic.

Plows would in turn have the highest failure rate of any anchor.

Originally Posted by GMac

Yeah, that Top Gear thing was magnificent. I was quite surprised at how far they actually got in the end. They have a real fun job, I want it

You know they drove across the Channel recently in a Nissan, right?

Originally Posted by Steve Pope

Have just aquired a Rocna 20, I'm already feeling confident that it wont drag at least as far as my (french copy) CQR does / did, or, if the promotions are to be believed never to drag again. With the mention of snubbers I come from the school that they are used primarily to allow you a quiet nights sleep,(in a suspect anchorage I don't use one as I can tell from the chain noise as to whether the anchor is holding adequately and to date accurately) what is the reccommended length of snubber to have when used on an 8 tonne yacht as a shock load reducer and what material (nylon? polyester? polyprop?) I note that Craig seems to promote polyester over nylon.

Polyester is a somewhat better material for rode for various reasons, but nylon stretches a bit more so is the better choice for a dedicated snubber. Brait for either as recommended by GMac, and again avoid polyprop like the plague.

[Celestialsailor]

For what it is worth...I have used a CQR for 20 years and believe it or not have never dragged. Much of that time was anchored. Two times I was anchored in Hurricane winds. Both of those times the CQR burried itself so deep, it took hours to break it loose. It is easy to give an opinion of an anchor whose boat it dock bound 99.9% of the time. But doing the math, CQR is by far in greater numbers to what ever anchor you are trying to pedal. I wonder if the newer anchor companies "trying" to enter the market where in the same numbers as the CQR, perhaps they would have a similar incident stats as the CQR.
To say that more boats are out cruising these days than before is a misleading statement. I think most cruisers now are staying at the many thousands of marinas being built. Most of them can certainly afford a slip for an extended period of time. Just as they can afford the price being asked for these new #45 pieces of metal. I should think that real cruisers like Hal Roth and the likes would have a more realistic view of anchors.
I personally think that anchoring tehnique is equally important if not more so than choice of said anchor.

[GMac]

Originally Posted by craigsmith

Nope, it's because the CQR doesn't work very well. Ask all the folk who have had near misses, or proper disasters like the couple referenced above, because their plows didn't live up to expectations. And yes absolutely, there are lots of (bad) things a plow does that certain others cannot and will never...

All anchors are capable of dragging. Anyone who thinks otherwise please stay on land. All anchors have a flaw of one kind or another, some more than others, even the new ones are not perfect.

Everyone always blames the anchor, it's the easiest option but very rearly the whole cause.

For your part you're coming close to claiming there's no difference between anchor types and it really doesn't matter what's used. Is that your message?

If anchors were all the same would this thread exist?

On the odd occasion a brick will work as well as all manufacturer anchors.
If for some dumbarse reason someone reading this thinks they'll now use a brick, please do as the sooner you're off the water the safer the rest of us will be.

This makes no sense. Your parallel is silly.
Anyway if Corollas have the highest crash rate, then it says either they're less road-worthy cars or the people that buy them tend to be bad drivers, yes... it has nothing to do with how many there are on the road, so long as all others are present in statistically significant in numbers. 'Rate' implies a per vehicle statistic.

Yes you are right there as I included the word 'rate' and I've now given up using car parallels.

As there is 100,000+ more CQR's being used than say, Rocnas, hence you are obviously going to find more people saying bad things about CQR's than Rocnas.

Must also be noted here that many people who report CQR issues don't actually have a CQR just a knock-off.

Plows would in turn have the highest failure rate of any anchor.

I'd put my money on grapnels, Claws and CQR knock-offs long before real CQR's. Can't really just say a blanket 'plow'.

Celestialsailor, you are not alone and that is a good post. Just the point I'm trying, poorly, to say.

A damn good anchor does made technique a lot less important though. That's the new ones biggest gain I like about them, setting characteristics, far superior for the dumber of user. Not saying all anchor users are dumb, far from it but one or 4 are damn spooky.

[Celestialsailor]

I was taught to use my CQR by an old salt that had been at sea on and off for 30 some odd years. He showed me how to lay out the anchor using a shortened scope (chain) and putting my foot on the chain to "feel it". Once it stopped jerking around, he would let 7:1 out and "set" the anchor and then reel a little back in. Then, a snubber was lashed into the chain so the anchor could not be jerked out. These tricks enabled the CQR to set and dig deeper. I have seen more than once an anchor without a snubber. I have even seen an anchor pitched over the bow, never set and the crew off to shore for drinks. Probably before the anchor hit bottom! It's no wonder anchors are blamed for their stupidity.

[TAREUA]

The technique I have seen recently in the Puget Sound (3 times in one anchorage!) was for the boat to find a spot as near to the shore/dock/ trail as they could fit, then drop the anchor as the boat moves forward slowly heading in the opposite way all the other boats were pulling on their anchors. When the boat comes to a stop, with the anchor presumably now behind the boat, they shut the motor off and it's all drinks and dinghy trips as the boat drifts 180 deg. from the direction of the anchor set. Maybe these new anchors are so good that method works, but I rather doubt it.
As a former sales person and a former purchasing agent, I never found it effective for anyone to denigrate a competitors product instead of demonstrating their own products advantages. Casting dispersions on prospective customers past experience and judgement has, in my experience, been counter productive. It's a joy to go to market with a better mouse trap, but it won't help to claim that no one was ever able to catch mice before it.