Only One Anchor

[SkiprJohn]

In response to Mark's, "In previous posts on this forum, you will find that he is working with a children's boating program to provide an anchor for their club boat."

Just to set the record straight. Craig was working on selling our sail training program a Rocna. As I stated before we already have anchors and as a non-profit can't afford to buy another one for our kids program. So we won't be getting a Rocna.

Kind Regards,

JohnL

[Steve Pope]

i was talking to a 40 foot + Wharram cat owner who has put his Spade up for sale in the local 2nd hand shop and is now using a Bugel he got off a German boat, he says he had limited success with the spade and found it didn't hold well at all on some bottoms in the Bay of Islands but says the Bugel has held satisfactorily in the same anchorages.
I did ask if it was assembled properly, I had a look at it in the shop, it was assembled correctly.

[Rez]

Bulwagga. Grabs everything. Resets fast in circling wind.

[Kanani]

Originally Posted by SkiprJohn

In response to Mark's, "In previous posts on this forum, you will find that he is working with a children's boating program to provide an anchor for their club boat."

Just to set the record straight. Craig was working on selling our sail training program a Rocna. As I stated before we already have anchors and as a non-profit can't afford to buy another one for our kids program. So we won't be getting a Rocna.

Kind Regards,

JohnL

Thanks for keeping the facts straight John......

[MidLandOne]

Originally Posted by Rick

Regardless of Craig's "good" attributes his objectionable ones are not made more palatible or excuseable by any such demonstrations, in my opinion. In short, he would serve his company better by being less rather than more.

I couldn't agree more. In my opinion (and as mentioned to me by others too) he works on suckering in those who don't know better that his claims that his anchor is better than other modern ones is rubbish and any anchor builder claiming that will be regarded by professionals as a charlaton. He works on creating a cult following of the easily led and I see much in what he says which would make a professional wonder.

He also makes a big deal out of his allegations that another anchor builder copied the Rocna, including his running a page on his web site about that - whereas in fact there is nothing much (anything?) on the Rocna that didn't appear on other anchors before (including the roll bar). He has also in forums rehashed magazine test information to favour his own (as diagnosed by Alain Poraud). These are things (as well as the beach tests I mentioned) which give me cause to avoid his product.

I have no argument with the fact that modern anchors are an incremental improvement in many circumstances over those that went before but anyone happy enough with an older anchor for their conditions (whatever they may be) would be silly to chuck their existing anchors away for the sake of perhaps saving a few pounds weight on a cruising or work boat (and a race boat will use whatever they can get away with weight wise ).

In the end I would rather buy an anchor off a respected anchor builder than from someone like Rocna whose anchor I have no doubt works, but who, to me has the selling approach of a wild west snake oil salesman (or so it seems from his widespread forum outpourings) and so, for me, raises doubts of trust.

Craig may wish to dispute or even dislike what I say. But the fact is there are many who tell me they think the same as me. I personally think that he would be better taking a lower key, more knowledgable and less "soap powder selling" approach if he wants to appeal to experienced seamen (but perhaps they are not his intended market?).

Note: I have no connection with any anchor builder. I have though worked a lot with commercial fleets in a number of countries including specifying anchoring systems.

[Agility]

Originally Posted by Kanani

I have anchored with my Delta in sand hundreds of times, all over the world and never once had the experience that they show in their video. <.. Stuff deleted...>

The fact is, almost any anchor will hook-up in a sandy bottum, almost instantly.

I have also anchored in sand hundred of times with my Delta. I have had many instances of it not setting first time. When it did set I only had it drag twice. Once in Martinique and once in Croatia (Sibinik). I have had it reset at least six times in one night also.

I think when it dragged in Croatia is was because it was mud. In Martinique, I'm not sure. Perhaps too little scope.

I'd get one again, but it looks to me like the Rocna has a few innovations so I'll give it a try when I outfit my new boat.

I'm pleased to have vendors enthusiastically expressing an option and subjecting themselves to rational debate. Imho, if we run them off then we'll all be worse for it.

[Celestialsailor]

While I agree there may be improvements in anchor technology and we all can benefit by this. I must also state that this is a forum for people interested in boats and boating to exchange ideas and opinions. What takes away from a forum is when someone bad mouths another product in order to promote their product.
We have many boating vendors in these forums and for the most part, they give their opinion not at the expense of someone else and usually give their opinion becausae they were asked for it. Not bulldose a thread with statements of other opinions being wrong. There is usually 10 ways of making a statement. You can come off informative, helpful and kind...or...you can be an opinionated horses ass.

[MidLandOne]

Originally Posted by Celestialsailor

We have many boating vendors in these forums and for the most part, they give their opinion not at the expense of someone else and usually give their opinion because they were asked for it.

And in my view GMac is an excellent example of a good provider of fair and reliable (for the most part ) anchoring and mooring information and am happy to say so. (PS I don't know GMac ).

One thing that always surprises me from these anchor threads on forums is the concentration on what is the best anchor and which anchor is better than another, whereas one should be considering an "anchoring system" ie everything from the bottom of the cable locker to the free end of the anchor, all of which contribute to the effectiveness of "anchoring" (as well as the decisions of the nut behind the windlass which are also an important component ) together with the nature of the boat itself, the conditions it is expected to operate in and the independance expected of it.

Perhaps that is why some do not or only rarely drag regardless of what anchor they use (I exclude the likes of old cast iron flywheels, etc from that ), while others seem to recount frequent dragging with the same anchors?

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by Celestialsailor

... What takes away from a forum is when someone bad mouths another product in order to promote their product ...

Sales Tip #41a:
Compare - Don't Criticize: Yes, I know, your product or service is so much better than your competitor's, and they're really not very nice people either. But disparaging your competition makes you appear malicious, and leads the customer to mentally defend the absent victim of your criticism. Rather, emphasize those of your strengths, that will illuminate their weaknesses, if you have a clear idea of what they are. Let your customer tell you about (and disparage) your competition.

[Islandmike]

Last Friday I had Tivoli surveyed and when we came to the chain and anchor I asked him his opinion of what kind of anchor to use. He quickly and with a little emotion in his voice said, "That is highly personal". I almost laughed, but then remembered some of the passion on this formum with regards to anchors and chain. He was a great guy and gave me lots of tips, but was not really going to dicuss the anchor situation. However, I did get hm to admit to using a Bruce.. I contiued to push and asked him about the Rocna, his eyes just glazed over. He said he lived in Caribbean for 12 years and never had a problem with his Bruce. I just want to know the right answer....

[SkiprJohn]

Aloha All,

Who'd have thought that asking for folks response to a survey would provide such heated entertainment?

So maybe subjects like religion, politics, sexual preference and anchors should be off limits. Just kiddin' of course.

Great forum. Keep those opinions coming.

JohnL

[GMac]

And in my view GMac is an excellent example of a good provider of fair and reliable (for the most part ) anchoring and mooring information and am happy to say so. (PS I don't know GMac ).

Aww shucks... now I'm blushing, thanks. Seeing we don't know each other I don't know who to send that slab of cold beers too. Damn I'll have to drink them myself. Be assured I will enjoy them immensely for you

I'm here to learn just like most and if I can help with a few things I've learnt I'm happy to do so. I've learnt a lot for you guys as well and as I always say "beer must be drunk cold" oppps... and "the more we know about how people use their gear and what they expect from it the better we can help them get the best set-up for their situation".

That leads nicely into the other thing we always say -

"That is highly personal"

We actually say "horses for courses" but it's the same thing so I absolutely agree 100% with the man from Tivoli.

As good as, Anchor X (insert pretty much any name you like) is, it does have limitations which may or may not suit the specific boat and user for the situation they are using it in.

Hence while some anchors (many products) are better generally than others, not anyone anchor is perfect for everyone in every situation.

As a slight aside, I think if you look back a bit Craig Rocna has also said the same thing so as passionate as he maybe for his product he does realise it's not 100% perfect for everyone in every situation. He is a bit more realistic than he comes across on the forums at times.

Yes I do know Craig, no I am not getting paid by Rocna in any form. You can equally swap Craig Rocna for Steve Manson or Alain ex-Spade if you so desire.

[RaptorDance]

We love our Bruce on an all chain rode.

A few times the bottom was such that it would not set (too much weed), but once it has set it have NEVER dragged.

This includes anchoring in places with a 4 knot reversing tidal current (China Camp in SF Bay).

Cheers,
Bill

[Mike Banks]

I think a 45 pounds CQR is way too light even for a secondary anchor--it might be better to sell it and put the money towards a heavier Buegel or Rocna--my Tri is a lot lighter then yours and dragged a 45 pounds CQR on one occasion--and that is one occasion too many. I now have a sixty pounds Manson. Have not dragged it yet--

I supoose I should add that it was only in about thirty feet of water and that I set about two hundred feet of all chain rode out. Trimarans skate about a bit at anchor--and they can unset the anchor which then does not re-set all of the time. I dragged it at half a knot, it never re-set. Scared the hell out of me--after that I used a bahamian set with a claw and the CQR until I could buy a better anchor.

[Kanani]

Originally Posted by Mike Banks

I think a 45 pounds CQR is way too light even for a secondary anchor--it might be better to sell it and put the money towards a heavier Buegel or Rocna--my Tri is a lot lighter then yours and dragged a 45 pounds CQR on one occasion--and that is one occasion too many. I now have a sixty pounds Manson. Have not dragged it yet--

I supoose I should add that it was only in about thirty feet of water and that I set about two hundred feet of all chain rode out. Trimarans skate about a bit at anchor--and they can unset the anchor which then does not re-set all of the time. I dragged it at half a knot, it never re-set. Scared the hell out of me--after that I used a bahamian set with a claw and the CQR until I could buy a better anchor.

200' is less than 6:1 scope in 30' of water (assuming that was measured at high tide) and another 4-6' to the bow roller. That's not much for a multi-hull in any kind of breese.

Don't get me wrong, I don't care for CQRs but that isn't a very good example IMO.