Chain Stopper Install

[UNCIVILIZED]

Originally Posted by ErBrown

A64 - As is so often on your threads, we're have the exact same dilemma. Recently upsized anchor, chain and windlass and the last piece is a good quality chain stopper. As has been said many time here, a true snubber will always be primary (and secondary) but I like the chain stopper as a last resort backup or to help if having to recover by hand.

Our plan was to go with the Maxwell stopper but since I haven't settled on the mounting option, this is still on the todo list.

The thing that concerns me about the Maxwell levered stopper (other than price) is that it appear to have the bolts permanently attached to the base of the stopper.

Maxwell

So if we go this route I'd have to work with our local stainless shop re-work it for our use. Maybe we'd be better off going with the Lewmar you linked to above...

EDIT: I just did a Bing search for "Anchor Chain Stopper" & got more hits than I could ever need. Do an image search for same first, & then track down the ones which you see that strike your fancy.

Look for them at; Ideal Windlass, Downwind Marine, Marine Depot Direct, & a heap of others. As all of the stated ones appear solid from their pics, & bolt down in a standard manner.
http://www.idealwindlass.com/new_page_5.htm
http://www.downwindmarine.com/Amar-D...-90892239.html
http://www.marinedepotdirect.com/sta...n-stopper.html


I Know that there are other brands of chain stoppers that have more features to them that are common sense based, & eminently user friendly, from the days when I did a lot of work with big Swans & similar. The catch is, finding them. And I'm guessing that it's simply a question of looking "backwards" towards the older maritime hubs, where much semi-custom & custom hardware is made. Including nautical foundrys, where these types of things are more common. And they rarely, if ever, throw away patterns for pouring such items.
Meaning making them out of aluminum, bronze, or whatever. In runs of anywhere from a handful on up.

You might try the foundry in Port Townsend, WA at Port Townsend Foundry in Washington
As well as contacting the NW Maritime center in Port Townsend. Ditto on similar in Seattle, Vancouver BC, Mystic CT, several in New England... & of course overseas, in England, France, etc.

Also, ages ago when I was in search of a part, Pete at the Port Townsend Foundry offered to make me what I needed, including assisting me on making a full sized pattern for it, from which they'd set up their equipment to turn the pattern into a mold, & then do a pour.
Heck, he even offered to help me design & build a mold for an add on keel bulb, gratis. Even though he wouldn't be involved in the pour. And that such molds are more complex than most.

It's far from complex, so long as you're decent with hand tools & wood. And can do a bit of drawing with the specifications included. And if someone were to make some "noise" about doing a run of them, it'd make the custom stoppers a lot cheaper if we were to order 50 or 100.

Especially as, if they prove to be popular, a number of chandleries would certainly stock them. Much as the NW Maritime Center in Port Townsend does with a lot of the Foundries offerings. Ditto on many other nautical shops in the PNW, both north & south of the border.

And that's assuming that the Foundry doesn't already make them.

[Sailmonkey]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

OK, got it, stopper must be Hell for strong.
I'll have to get a good look at this thing, initial impression was the gate part would be weaker than the chain. Maybe not.


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Do you have the standard or the deluxe?

http://www.westmarine.com/buy/lewmar...05_155_002_501

We've got the standard, and in hindsight I should have gone with the deluxe.


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[a64pilot]

It is the deluxe. In truth I was only going to use it to take the load off the windlass for lunch stops, maybe until I got the snubber set etc.
Never thought to have it hold the boat in any weather, I still think that is a bad idea. Sort of like hoping the parking brake will stop your car going down a mountain after the primary brakes have failed, sure I'd try it, heck I'd try sticking my finger in a gun barrel, who knows, maybe bullets need a running start , but I wouldn't expect success.
I've been sitting here in a storm thinking that maybe two snubbers might not be a bad idea, one a few feet longer than the other so it's not taking a load, or do you have them each take half the load? Or just go big with one?
I'm using 25' of 5/8 now, will likely go up to 3/4, I like having a cushion. My snubbed is two lines, not one.
Problem with a Sampson post is the need the accompanying structure to make them work, I'd only expect to see them on purpose built expedition type of boats, not current modern production boats.

I don't think chain stoppers are designed for the kind of loads we are talking, if they were, surely they would have a much larger base, I mean at least three or four times the area? Just about any kind of fiberglass type of boat, if you mount them strong enough, apply excessive force and I think you'll break the mounting surface, unless you put it on a thick mounting plate?


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[Terra Nova]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

...
Never thought to have it hold the boat in any weather, I still think that is a bad idea. ...
Problem with a Sampson post is the need the accompanying structure to make them work...
I don't think chain stoppers are designed for the kind of loads we are talking, if they were, surely they would have a much larger base, I mean at least three or four times the area? Just about any kind of fiberglass type of boat, if you mount them strong enough, apply excessive force and I think you'll break the mounting surface, unless you put it on a thick mounting plate?...

That's what I said--place it on a large plate.

There are Samson posts that simply mount to the deck by bolting through a flange base.

The chain stopper is your last line of defense and should be the strongest part of your anchoring system.

[UNCIVILIZED]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

It is the deluxe. In truth I was only going to use it to take the load off the windlass for lunch stops, maybe until I got the snubber set etc.
Never thought to have it hold the boat in any weather, I still think that is a bad idea. Sort of like hoping the parking brake will stop your car going down a mountain after the primary brakes have failed, sure I'd try it, heck I'd try sticking my finger in a gun barrel, who knows, maybe bullets need a running start , but I wouldn't expect success.

If you fully think through these problems, basing your solutions on the information provided, as well as that which you dig up yourself. And you'll have a pretty good chance of succeeding.
Think up "Solution A" based on all of the provided info. Put it in place, & test it out. Evaluate it's performance. Then redesign it & go through this cycle again. Just as when solving any other forseeable problem.

Chain stoppers tend to be a bad idea on recreational vessels only if they're looked upon & used as the only way of securing one's rode during a serious storm. But when used as part of a well designed & installed anchoring system. They're the last tool used for securing you to your rode, in what should be a multi-layered defensive ground tackle system.

I've been sitting here in a storm thinking that maybe two snubbers might not be a bad idea, one a few feet longer than the other so it's not taking a load, or do you have them each take half the load? Or just go big with one?
I'm using 25' of 5/8 now, will likely go up to 3/4, I like having a cushion. My snubbed is two lines, not one.

Going with 2 snubbers of differing lengths, & even diameters, isn't at all uncommon. Because when the 1st one has stretched enough so that the 2nd (longer) one also begins to take the load, you're then using 2 snubbers by design/default.
And either way, at that point you're using two snubbers. Albeit ones of differing energy absorbption rates. However, that's a perk in & of itself. All of which is mentioned in any number of well respected texts.

Problem with a Sampson post is the need the accompanying structure to make them work, I'd only expect to see them on purpose built expedition type of boats, not current modern production boats.

Again, this isn't a big deal, IF one's willing to address it. One just needs to build the proper reinforcing structure(s) into their boat in order to take these loadings.
And both the how, & why behind the design solutions, & the materials to impliment such have already been covered in this, & other threads.

I don't think chain stoppers are designed for the kind of loads we are talking, if they were, surely they would have a much larger base, I mean at least three or four times the area?

Several of the ones which I dug up via an online search that took all of 2 minutes, meet exactly these criteria. And the links to them are provided.
Also, from having worked with a variety of other chain stoppers, I know that there are even beefier ones available. And if you want something yet stronger, it's not difficult to have ones built that could support 4x the boat's displacement.
But they only need to be stronger than the chain by a reasonable amount. As well as not rivaling a windlass, size wise. Or they'll be too big to mount on a foredeck/anchor roller.

Just about any kind of fiberglass type of boat, if you mount them strong enough, apply excessive force and I think you'll break the mounting surface, unless you put it on a thick mounting plate?

Yes, you absolutely need to mount them on a reinforcing plate, one which also helps to spread out the loads. Preferably a stainless steel one which covers a good bit of the foredeck, or sprit. Though in many instances, a properly spec'd piece of aluminum or G10 will do.
This bit has been addressed in several different ways, a few times over. By myself & several others.

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Maybe take a breather from this issue for a day or a week, & come back to it fresh? As the tools & solutions are here when you're ready.

[Snowpetrel]

If I was sitting out an amageddion storm there is no way my last resort is going to be a snubber bolted through a wooden bowsprit, or some part of a foredeck that is not very very heavily reinforced.

Hopefully the boat would have a Samson post, or some very strong cleats forward out on the deck edge, or even a big windlass base, or a keel stepped mast. A couple of strong dyneema lines can be prussik looped around the chain and taken back to the strong point. This is cheap, simple and strong.

A stainless plate under the foredeck is not a very good backing plate alone unless it is reinforced with heavy beams and longitudinals to distribute to load out to the hull. Better to use a big oversize peice of 1 inch g10 and then tie it through a substantial deck beam or add a proper bulkhead under the fitting. By the time you do all this its probably just as easy to add a Samson post that can also be used for mooring pendants or towing.

One concern with a chain stopper is that it is impossible to realease under heavy load. Seamanship 101 says it should always be possible to slip (and bouy) the chain and get out to sea quickly.

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[model 10]

[QUOTE=Terra Nova;2203431]

There are Samson posts that simply mount to the deck by bolting through a flange base.

That is not a Samson post.

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by Snowpetrel

If I was sitting out an amageddion storm there is no way my last resort is going to be a snubber bolted through a wooden bowsprit, or some part of a foredeck that is not very very heavily reinforced.

Hopefully the boat would have a Samson post, or some very strong cleats forward out on the deck edge, or even a big windlass base, or a keel stepped mast. A couple of strong dyneema lines can be prussik looped around the chain and taken back to the strong point. This is cheap, simple and strong.

A stainless plate under the foredeck is not a very good backing plate alone unless it is reinforced with heavy beams and longitudinals to distribute to load out to the hull. Better to use a big oversize peice of 1 inch g10 and then tie it through a substantial deck beam or add a proper bulkhead under the fitting. By the time you do all this its probably just as easy to add a Samson post that can also be used for mooring pendants or towing.

One concern with a chain stopper is that it is impossible to realease under heavy load. Seamanship 101 says it should always be possible to slip (and bouy) the chain and get out to sea quickly.

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I go with this way of thinking, I believe but do not know and cannot prove that my cleats are stronger than anything I can put on my bowsprit, I'm hesitant to go to the mast cause something has me thinking you can pull it off its step.
I think one set of snubbers to my bow cleats and a second to my midship cleats ought to hold anything, plus of course the one going to the midship cleats will be 15 feet or so longer than the ones going to my bow cleats, which ought to give more stretch.
This is also something that is easy to do, doesn't cost lots of money and or hours of building. With double snubbers pulling on four cleats, I'd guess the new weak link is the chain.


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[Snowpetrel]

^^:thumbup: now you can go about installing your chain stopper knowing that its not the last resort in 150 knots.

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[thinwater]

Originally Posted by Snowpetrel

One concern with a chain stopper is that it is impossible to realease under heavy load. Seamanship 101 says it should always be possible to slip (and bouy) the chain and get out to sea quickly.

I was wondering when that was going to come up. To me, that is a non-starter.

I use a chain hook on a bit of oversized Dynemma to a cleat. But that is only for breaking out anchors. I believe in my bridle. For most catamarans there is nothing to attach a chain to on the front beam that makes any sense. A strong point on the main beam or one bow is going to lead to disastrous sailing anyway. Thus, the bridle cannot fail.

[Terra Nova]

Originally Posted by Snowpetrel

...now you can go about installing your chain stopper knowing that its not the last resort...

It is your last resort, after the snubbers fail, and just before your chain load is transferred to the bitter end tie-down.

[Snowpetrel]

Originally Posted by Terra Nova

It is your last resort, after the snubbers fail, and just before your chain load is transferred to the bitter end tie-down.

Unsubscribed

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[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

I go with this way of thinking, I believe but do not know and cannot prove that my cleats are stronger than anything I can put on my bowsprit, I'm hesitant to go to the mast cause something has me thinking you can pull it off its step.
I think one set of snubbers to my bow cleats and a second to my midship cleats ought to hold anything, plus of course the one going to the midship cleats will be 15 feet or so longer than the ones going to my bow cleats, which ought to give more stretch.
This is also something that is easy to do, doesn't cost lots of money and or hours of building. With double snubbers pulling on four cleats, I'd guess the new weak link is the chain.

Seems like an awful lot of rigging and unrigging every time. 4 snubbers??

I think you may be overthinking this.

First of all, the bow cleats on a well built boat (and IP are heavily and strongly built) should be strong enough for this. Why not just get a short thick piece of dyneema, stronger than your chain, splice a loop in one end and a chain hook in the other, and just put the loop around one bow cleat, and the hook on the chain? Provided you have a chafe-free way to lead it (!), then job done, and it will take you all of two second to put it on or take it off, and in an emergency, you can cut it.

As someone else suggested -- besides strongly belaying the chain, you also need this for breaking out the anchor -- you really don't want to have the windlass take that load. Also for setting the anchor! You don't want to rig a snubber every time.

As to snubbers: If they are nylon, then they are weakened by being wet, are highly vulnerable to chafe, and can fail suddenly from internal heating. It's a great idea to have two of them in strong weather -- they are unlikely to break at once, which will give you time to get another one on. For strong weather, as someone suggested, a thick and very long one will be much less vulnerable to these problems and less likely to break -- lead it to a midships or even aft cleat to accommodate the length needed to get some stretch in the thicker line. That's what I do.

I think a chain stopper is also perfectly acceptable despite the theoretical difficulty releasing it under load (actually just haul in the chain with the windlass and the stopper will open; otherwise put the snubber on a winch). On a plastic boat, however, usually much harder and more expensive to make it reasonably strong.

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by Snowpetrel

...

One concern with a chain stopper is that it is impossible to realease under heavy load. Seamanship 101 says it should always be possible to slip (and bouy) the chain and get out to sea quickly.

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Certainly a concern. Some of the better chain stoppers have a removable pin, but this could get bent and still not be removable. I have a bolt cutter handy for cutting away rigging or through the chain. So far I haven't had to use it in anger.

[noelex 77]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Why not just get a short thick piece of dyneema, stronger than your chain, splice a loop in one end and a chain hook in the other, and just put the loop around one bow cleat, and the hook on the chain? Provided you have a chafe-free way to lead it (!), then job done, and it will take you all of two second to put it on or take it off, and in an emergency, you can cut it.

This is a good option, but it is not quite the same as the sort of chain stopper that A64 is considering fixing. A bolt-on deck chain stopper has the advantage that it is a one way clutch. It is always in place, preventing a snatch load on the windlass, a bit like a rope clutch that leads to a sheet winch.

There are times when this can be useful, such as when retrieving the anchor with a lot of wave action, or if the chain is stuck under a rock, or if the windlass fails and you have to retrieve the chain by hand/sheet winch.

With a bolt-on deck chain stopper, it will automatically lock in place even when a few links of chain are retrieved. It is often not practical to adjust a strop and chain hook like this.

There are also some significant disadvantages to a bolt-on deck chain stopper. It needs a very strong deck connection and a very strong bowsprit. If it locks in place while the anchor is being retrieved at a short scope with some wave action the loads on the chain stopper and bowsprit can be enormous if a wave lifts the bow. Most fibreglass boats do not have a strong enough attachment point and bow roller for this. There is also some wear on the galvanising of the chain and finally, the distance between the end of the anchor shank and the windlass is too short to install a chain stopper on many boats.

However, if you have a bolt-on deck chain stopper, you can always pull the pin on the paw disabling it, so you have the advantage of both options.

I also agree that in A64's case, the bolt-on deck chain stopper may be more trouble than it worth. There needs to be a lot of care that structures like the bowsprit are not compromised.