Thoughts on Current 25~30HP Outboard Options

[ggray]

Steve, just to be clear, the motor that you fried was an ETEC, correct?

Originally Posted by SteveSadler

While the e techs are a great engine, they rely on an oil pump to deliver the oil to gas. I fried a 115 engine due to the oil pump failing. The shop said it was a common failure and to prevent it, I should mix oil in the gas at 100 to 1 to prevent this from repeating.

[CalmSeasQuest]

I'm really torn on this one - Specs wise I think the E-TEC is the clear winner (at least for my intended use); but access to service is critical. It "looks" like there are service options in the USVIs/BVIs, but I'll need to confirm as it's unlikely these will be fixed on a beach by the local 2-stroke Yamaha mechanics.

[ggray]

AFAIK, troubleshooting is done with a computer. No backyard mechanics here! Hooking up to a computer tells everything about what the engine has been doing, I think.
But that is something to think about when going into the boonies.

[SteveSadler]

Ggray, No it wasn't, I should have clarified that.

[ggray]

OK, I'm not alarmed now.

You must be talking about a motor with VRO. I had a 60 hp Johnson with VRO, and my mechanic informed me that the VRO pump was working but the safety alarm that alerted if the pump should fail was not functioning, so he strongly recommended mixing oil in the gas, and removing the VRO oil tank. Years later when I upgraded to a 4 stroke, I sold the Johnson to someone who... had fried his Johnson motor when the VRO pump failed.

Sounds like there is a reliability factor with VRO pumps. But these VRO pumps move mix oil to a mixing point with the fuel; the ETEC pump on the other hand pumps the lube oil just like in any internal combustion engine, and I have never heard of one of these failing, though it's certainly possible.

[Palarran]

Originally Posted by CalmSeasQuest

I'm really torn on this one - Specs wise I think the E-TEC is the clear winner (at least for my intended use); but access to service is critical. It "looks" like there are service options in the USVIs/BVIs, but I'll need to confirm as it's unlikely these will be fixed on a beach by the local 2-stroke Yamaha mechanics.

Don't do it. I'm on my way over to buy a Yamaha this morning to replace the 2 year old, 100 hour run time etec. Even here in Nassau there are no factorry repair tech's so my options are pretty much zero.

As an fyi, I'm going back to a two stroke. it's 60 pounds lighter.

[ausaviator]

We've been running an e-tec 90 on our Zodiac for quite a while now. It's clocked up well over 1,000 without any issues. The only issue thus far has been a broken steering cable, so no fault of the engine. A check of the engine monitor shows we spend most of our time in the mid RPM range with about 10% up near flat out.

The worst thing about the engine is that when it's running, it upsets every 27mhz marine radio within a few hundred metres, so you can't leave the 27mhz on whilst the engine is running, even when set at full squelch. The newer models don't do this, or so they tell me and ours can't be modified to stop it from happening. No issues on the VHF though.

[sandiegoskipper]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eu3NEPSBfUs

Here is a good summary of the nuts and bolts behind the E-Tec technology. IMHO it is way too complicated for most technicians without proper tools (including a diagnostic computer) and training. As the largest advantage appears to be less pollution (for a two-stroke), it would seem that if environmental responsibility is high on your needs list, a lighter weight and basic carburetor design 4-stroke makes more sense. Even if it takes a few minutes more to get to the grocery store...

Skip

[CalmSeasQuest]

Add to the E-TECH advantages no oil changes, more torque (compared to 4-strokes), better fuel economy and 300 HR service intervals. It's down to the Suzuki (which is a 22lbs lighter) vs E-TECH assuming I can confirm factory service availability in our area of operation.

An afterthought...The Suzuki has electronic fuel injection and I assume related electronics. I wonder how "island-serviceable" it will be. Perhaps both will require dealer-based service.

[sandiegoskipper]

In looking over the technology of the Suzuki I see that it too has a lot of component parts related to meeting EPA requirements. I'd want to know more about the battery-less EFI to understand how the engine gets initial fuel.

Remember that peak-torque is only at a given RPM. X torque at 3,200 RPM is far better for reliability than X+1 torque at 6,500 RPM. Especially in a 2-stroke because the torque curve is not as "flat" as in a 4-stroke. As for maintenance, changing crankcase oil in a motor hanging off your taffrail is about as easy as it comes. And fuel economy too is based on a specific output so an apples to apples comparison is difficult as this marketing claim is not EPA regulated as it in with cars.

Suggest you look at the on-line consumer opinions of the E-tec engine in the other applications used by Bombardier - sea-doo & ski-doo. Same with the Suzuki engines.

Skip

[CalmSeasQuest]

Originally Posted by sandiegoskipper

Suggest you look at the on-line consumer opinions of the E-tec engine in the other applications used by Bombardier - sea-doo & ski-doo. Same with the Suzuki engines.

Skip

I've reviewed virtually every article, thread and YouTube video comparing the E-TEC to contemporaries. I've yet to find a smoking gun. Excluding the occasional outliers, they both seem to be highly regarded and reliable. The E-TEC does have a special 10 year warranty for outboards purchased by 4/30/18 (compared to 3 on the Suzuki.)

[sandiegoskipper]

The only reason mfgrs offer longer warranties is to counteract real or assumed reliability issues... And a warranty is only as good as the dealer who can (and is willing to) claim the repayment from said mfgr. Also, I trust you know that "outliers" should be listened to more than robots (human or otherwise) who auto-respond to build consumer confidence for certain brands and products - especially those who need a boost in consumer image/confidence/perception...

From what I've read about the E-TEC in snow machines, I'd stay away from it. And the owners of those don't have to deal with salt water, dealer training/tools, non-US/CAN parts issues and customer assistance availability.

Skip

[Palarran]

I have the new two stroke Yamaha installed and running. It was pretty easy but running the control cables under the floor took some doing. I'll tell you the pro's as they were immediately noticeable. The motor is 65 pounds lighter, though it doesn't have power trim. That weight was always on the stern and made the dingy very heavy on the davits. It actually made about 100% of the weight bear on one davit and the other had nothing. It is much faster and the dingy comes up on plane twice as fast. I'd guess that we will be able to get 5 or 6 adults up on plane in the future instead of 4 or 5 in the past. If I had never had a motor, this one would be much less to purchase - I paid $4k total.

It is smoking now but the fuel mix is 1:25 for the first tank then it goes to 1:100 so I expect that to go away. It is louder and vibrates more. The motor build is in general much cheaper than the Evinrude but that is because this is a two stroke.

So, if I had to rewind the decisions, and could have purchased a two stroke in Turkey, I would now because of #1 - the weight and #2 the serviceability worldwide.

[Palarran]

Originally Posted by sandiegoskipper

The only reason mfgrs offer longer warranties is to counteract real or assumed reliability issues... And a warranty is only as good as the dealer who can (and is willing to) claim the repayment from said mfgr. Also, I trust you know that "outliers" should be listened to more than robots (human or otherwise) who auto-respond to build consumer confidence for certain brands and products - especially those who need a boost in consumer image/confidence/perception...

From what I've read about the E-TEC in snow machines, I'd stay away from it. And the owners of those don't have to deal with salt water, dealer training/tools, non-US/CAN parts issues and customer assistance availability.

Skip

I like long warranties but really seldom think it's long because there will be reliability issues. It's more a perceived value to the customer.

We do a lot of snowmobiling. I own 5 Skidoo's, though all are fuel injected instead of etec. But a lot of my snowmobiling friends have them and don't have problems. And we beat the crap out of these machines.

The real issue as you say is being able to service them and get parts quickly.

[Tornadosailing]

Even though I'm in the auto repair business, so it's not new to me, I'm always amazed at how slow engine control computers are. Rotax is bragging about their state of the art "very powerful" engine computer being capable of 8000 calculations a second. That's a whopping 8khz clock speed! Compare that to the latest Intel I7 chips running at 4,700,000,000 calculations a second.

Engine control computers are all about reliability in a harsh environment. Not sure they should be bragging about speed though.

Originally Posted by sandiegoskipper

Here is a good summary of the nuts and bolts behind the E-Tec technology. IMHO it is way too complicated for most technicians without proper tools (including a diagnostic computer) and training. As the largest advantage appears to be less pollution (for a two-stroke), it would seem that if environmental responsibility is high on your needs list, a lighter weight and basic carburetor design 4-stroke makes more sense. Even if it takes a few minutes more to get to the grocery store...

Skip