My in-mast furling is a nightmare

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by GILow

Like I said before, nobody starts a thread about how their in- mast furler worked well again today.

I’m going to have to agree.

When the 50 foot mono I had last came with the in mast furling I was a bit nervous. I have to admit. I was picturing it would break at just the wrong time. There would be problems. As it turned out, it was the easiest and most reliable thing I have ever used for sail control.

You just had to know how to use it.

You could run into trouble if you made mistakes. I made a couple getting used to it and had some small jams. But single-handed you could adjust that sail area from 0 to 100% any time in any conditions with perfect reliability once you learned how to use it.

[s/v Jedi]

No, it will never be as reliable as a full batten, slab reefed main and when you add preventers to that, it’s at the same convenience level too.

The in-mast furlers can work somewhat reliably when you get everything just right: the sail must be new, the furler can only be operated with the boom angled to a certain angle, within a couple degrees, the topping lift needs just the right tension, the sheet must be loose or tight, depending on who you ask and this list goes on endlessly. But when you get all that exactly right, it can work

With our full batten sail, I just let go of the halyard and the sail comes down. I can literally open the clutch with the halyard flaked in front of it, and my main is down neatly folded on the boom.

It doesn’t matter how the topping lift, sheet, vang is set or even how old the sail is; it simply works every time.

[Chotu]

This time I’m having the same as you, Jedi.

The in mast furling came with the boat. But it surprised me.

Can you reef with infinite resolution? Put out 97% of the sail? 82% of the sail? 64% of the sail? 15% of the sail? All with the click of a button?

Having infinite reefing resolution with the main and Genoa was quite handy.

I think this alone makes it worth considering for many people. It actually works great. You just have to know how to use it.

The sail shape stinks however.

[Bully]

Whilst the whole setup of IMF furling is about convenience and not performance. It is probably more important than ever to use quality cloth, sails that stretch and become baggy are notoriously harder to furl, particularly on larger vessels.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by Bully

Whilst the whole setup of IMF furling is about convenience and not performance. It is probably more important than ever to use quality cloth, sails that stretch and become baggy are notoriously harder to furl, particularly on larger vessels.

There, more restrictions

[GILow]

Slab reefing with lazyjacks can be far from stress free. Sooner or later a batten snags the lazyjacks or a batten car binds on the way down.

Sure, not frequent and the risks can be managed.

Anyway, from all I have read so far I'm sticking with the very old Hood Stoway system on the new boat for now. If it gives me grief I'll go back to the old slab reefing system. Easy conversion.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by GILow

Slab reefing with lazyjacks can be far from stress free. Sooner or later a batten snags the lazyjacks or a batten car binds on the way down.

Sure, not frequent and the risks can be managed.

Anyway, from all I have read so far I'm sticking with the very old Hood Stoway system on the new boat for now. If it gives me grief I'll go back to the old slab reefing system. Easy conversion.

A full batten will only snag a lazyjack during the first couple of feet of hoisting, never during lowering. Also, this is a non issue because you simply wait a second for the wind to move the sail and continue.

I have never heard of a batten car binding on the way down. Would like to see a citation on this being possible.

About partial reefing: you don’t need to reef somewhere in between the first and second reef. This is just a made-up advantage of in-mast reefing. I have never heard anyone wishing they had intermediate reefing points.

[GILow]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

A full batten will only snag a lazyjack during the first couple of feet of hoisting, never during lowering. Also, this is a non issue because you simply wait a second for the wind to move the sail and continue.



I have never heard of a batten car binding on the way down. Would like to see a citation on this being possible.



About partial reefing: you don’t need to reef somewhere in between the first and second reef. This is just a made-up advantage of in-mast reefing. I have never heard anyone wishing they had intermediate reefing points.

Ummm, can't give a citation, but I've had plenty of batten car jambs on lowering. Usually it's because the first battens haven't laid out properly in the boom bag and so kind of push back against the rest of the sail above. Not the end of the world but far from smooth. Of.course it only happens at bad times. A sudden need to drop the main for a wind change, or a navigational challenge. And being a mostly solo sailor until now I've had to sort out the mess.on my own.

Yep, lazy Jack snags are nearly always, on my boat, the first or second batten and always because I was juggling too many things. In fair conditions , no worries at all. When trying to get the main up in a rolling pounding sea of chop you just know the main will flop back across.and grab a lazyjack for companionship.


I'm pretty excited about the in-mast furling on the new boat, from what I've read so far I think I will get on well with it.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by GILow

Ummm, can't give a citation, but I've had plenty of batten car jambs on lowering. Usually it's because the first battens haven't laid out properly in the boom bag and so kind of push back against the rest of the sail above. Not the end of the world but far from smooth. Of.course it only happens at bad times. A sudden need to drop the main for a wind change, or a navigational challenge. And being a mostly solo sailor until now I've had to sort out the mess.on my own.

Yep, lazy Jack snags are nearly always, on my boat, the first or second batten and always because I was juggling too many things. In fair conditions , no worries at all. When trying to get the main up in a rolling pounding sea of chop you just know the main will flop back across.and grab a lazyjack for companionship.


I'm pretty excited about the in-mast furling on the new boat, from what I've read so far I think I will get on well with it.

Ah, now I get it, you flipped to the dark side

But no, never saw any batten cars bind up on the way down, especially not because of lower slides already being down. The car slides on a rail, it simply won’t bind.

There is never a problem with a couple seconds delay when setting a sail. There is huge trouble when not being able to furl a sail.

[SV-Viento]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Ah, now I get it, you flipped to the dark side

But no, never saw any batten cars bind up on the way down, especially not because of lower slides already being down. The car slides on a rail, it simply won’t bind.

There is never a problem with a couple seconds delay when setting a sail. There is huge trouble when not being able to furl a sail.

Have seen several different types of batten car failures from simple slugs to more sophisticated car and batten systems. It happens.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by SV-Viento

Have seen several different types of batten car failures from simple slugs to more sophisticated car and batten systems. It happens.

Nope, the only failures I have seen is from coming down so fast that all the bearings roll over deck after slamming down.

[SV-Viento]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Nope, the only failures I have seen is from coming down so fast that all the bearings roll over deck after slamming down.

Funny, that's one of my favorites. It goes with the car end cap apparently ripping/falling off while in full hoist and raining down little derlin BBs. Could have shot an eye but instead flogged about until the batten ripped through the batten pocket.

In all fairness it was made by the H@**** Company and at the time the end caps I think were a composite plastic - I think they are now made with machined aluminum.

[SaltyMetals]

I had no end of trouble with an old cross-cut dacron sail. Yes, it was baggy and 12 years old but little used. I go along with comments from NY Sail (#7) and Dockhead (#27) but make a few extra observations:
1.Agree laminated dyneema taffeta an excellent choice. Much more stable than dacron.
2. I had my new laminated sail made w vertical battens and this gives as much positive roach as a conventional horizontally battened main. On my sail there is a short batten at the leach between each of the first three long battens. Made by Banks Sails, Bari, Italy who also measured the width of the slot before making the sail.
3.Halyard tension, just enough to take out the horizontal folds in the sail. Too much tension and you squeeze the main against the slot in the middle section of the mast. Then religiously relax the tension before furling when returning back to port. I mark my halyards at the Spinlock cleats.
4. Mast bend: my system manages OK with a little pre-bend but max 50% of the chord. Once again, too much will result in the same as 3 above. Some earlier posts are correctly playing safe with no bend at all
5. Boom Traveler: not mentioned in any of the previous posts but i have found that the system works best when the traveler stop is not too near the mast, best about 50% along the boom. This gives a straighter, more horizontal, pull on the clew.
I used the above on the old sail and successfully managed to avoid the persistent jamming. With 1-5 above and new laminated sail i have never had a jam in 8 years and 10,000nm both Atlantic/Biscay & Med, and find the ease and flexibility well worth while (sail quite a lot solo, ).

I know this does not really give the OP an answer to his question but simply as encouragement and to say i strongly believe it is worthwhile persevering with in-mast furling. Some will never be convinced that one is better than the other. A bit like the cat Vs mono debate....
Andrew

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by SaltyMetals

I had no end of trouble with an old cross-cut dacron sail. Yes, it was baggy and 12 years old but little used. I go along with comments from NY Sail (#7) and Dockhead (#27) but make a few extra observations:
1.Agree laminated dyneema taffeta an excellent choice. Much more stable than dacron.
2. I had my new laminated sail made w vertical battens and this gives as much positive roach as a conventional horizontally battened main. On my sail there is a short batten at the leach between each of the first three long battens. Made by Banks Sails, Bari, Italy who also measured the width of the slot before making the sail.
3.Halyard tension, just enough to take out the horizontal folds in the sail. Too much tension and you squeeze the main against the slot in the middle section of the mast. Then religiously relax the tension before furling when returning back to port. I mark my halyards at the Spinlock cleats.
4. Mast bend: my system manages OK with a little pre-bend but max 50% of the chord. Once again, too much will result in the same as 3 above. Some earlier posts are correctly playing safe with no bend at all
5. Boom Traveler: not mentioned in any of the previous posts but i have found that the system works best when the traveler stop is not too near the mast, best about 50% along the boom. This gives a straighter, more horizontal, pull on the clew.
I used the above on the old sail and successfully managed to avoid the persistent jamming. With 1-5 above and new laminated sail i have never had a jam in 8 years and 10,000nm both Atlantic/Biscay & Med, and find the ease and flexibility well worth while (sail quite a lot solo, ).

I know this does not really give the OP an answer to his question but simply as encouragement and to say i strongly believe it is worthwhile persevering with in-mast furling. Some will never be convinced that one is better than the other. A bit like the cat Vs mono debate....
Andrew

Perfect example that supports my pov

[Nicholson58]

Originally Posted by SailingHarmonie

A "perfectly flat" sail would be close to useless for anything except downwind. A roller furling sail needs to have the RIGHT shape, and the right shape is most certainly NOT "perfectly flat"! While it is true that most roller furling sails have less draft added with broad seaming, they all have a positive roach on the LUFF that puts draft in the sail, and is essential to an efficient airfoil shape. Most sailors pay no attention, to halyard tension on a roller furling rig, but it is still a really important tool to maximizing the shape of the sail in changing wind strengths.

If you are hauling a conventional sail up a track, and it is stretched and baggy, it will heel the boat more, not point as high, and have all kinds of other performance issues, but it will go up and down without issue. The boat will become less and less capable, but you can keep using the sail until it falls apart.

Once a roller furling sail starts to stretch and get baggy, it absolutely does become a real nightmare to unroll cleanly. This really is not a downside to roller furling, since when sail gets to that point it is WELL past time to replace it anyway.

A flat sail and straight mast is the only thing that works for in mast furling. Confirmed by the North Sail expert rep and loft owner in Antigua.

Photos of our 3DI main. Hood Stoway with electric drive from 1984. The Hood mast slot is about an inch wide. Hugely forgiving but our bagged old main was tying itself in knots. Air draft is 80 feet and the aspect is high. Boom is 22 feet. View looking up is close hauled. We point +5 higher than the boat has ever previously done including a new Dacron main. We are also 10% faster and that is with the also new 3DI 98% blade jib replacing the 135% Quantum 5 layer Fusion Membrane Genoa. The main is shaped by control of the clew, up-down, in-out. Those are the only possibilities. The sail is flat because the mast is a straight stick. If you try in mast with a bent mast the geometry demands a mess. There is no main luff sag as with a jib which is controlled by backstay tension. Notice the mast section. One does not bend this stick.