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Old 16-12-2013, 08:37   #1
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boom less, track less staysail advice

I have no boom, and no track on my cutter. I wanted to install either two or three blocks to control the staysail but I am not sure about the negative effects of each design.

Is there a good way to rig the staysail without boom and tracks? Our staysail never exceeds the mast so a block located center on deck may be all I need. I just visualize it not working well.

Advice is welcome.
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Old 16-12-2013, 08:47   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Abrain View Post
I have no boom, and no track on my cutter. I wanted to install either two or three blocks to control the staysail but I am not sure about the negative effects of each design. Is there a good way to rig the staysail without boom and tracks? Our staysail never exceeds the mast so a block located center on deck may be all I need. I just visualize it not working well. Advice is welcome.
The benefit of a boom is better shape for sure. Often with a track it won't allow the sail to be out far enough on a reach to have a proper shape and tends to twist once let out past a certain point. I have yet to figure out how I am doing mine either. For me it boils down to what I want the sail for and , for me, it would be used most when it higher winds say 25 to 40 knots to help balance the boat properly. I might be able to do that without either a traveller or boom but am interested in what other people have to say.
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Old 16-12-2013, 08:51   #3
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pirate Re: boom less, track less staysail advice

Well... you could always put an eye each side and run a line across and attach the clew to that with a shackle... a single block with line at each eye to control the position of the staysail.
Its a system used on the smaller Wharrams for the Mainsheet traveller... allows the main to be set P & S...
Unfortunately I have no suitable picture to illustrate... and not sure if I've expressed things adequately...
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Old 16-12-2013, 09:07   #4
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Re: boom less, track less staysail advice

Quote:
Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post
Well... you could always put an eye each side and run a line across and attach the clew to that with a shackle... a single block with line at each eye to control the position of the staysail.
Its a system used on the smaller Wharrams for the Mainsheet traveller... allows the main to be set P & S...
Unfortunately I have no suitable picture to illustrate... and not sure if I've expressed things adequately...
Maybe say "picture it like a loose footed staysail traveler"
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Old 16-12-2013, 09:50   #5
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Re: boom less, track less staysail advice

I think this is it but I cant find a darn photo. Thanks ill keep looking
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Old 16-12-2013, 09:52   #6
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Re: boom less, track less staysail advice

Not sure if this pic helps. I removed the boom and installed a furler. There are many articles on this topic, both for an against.
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Old 16-12-2013, 10:04   #7
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Re: boom less, track less staysail advice

I want to NOT use a track though and most of you are mentioning a track unless I am mistaken.

SO the track or boom keep the sails foot pulled straight, correct?
And the sheets allow the sail to travel athwartship, correct?

If so could I rig one block for athwartship moment, self tacking. Then rig a vang to keep the sails foot straight?

It be a funny looking rig right but should work? no track and no boom.
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Old 16-12-2013, 12:54   #8
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Re: boom less, track less staysail advice

A sailmaker familiar with more traditional boats can set up a sail to sheet to specific points on the cabin top. Easy to do if there is a pennant at the bottom by adjusting how high up the stay the sail goes. If the sail is full length, you can do the same thing by setting the sail and acting as the block by standing on the sheet in various locations on the cabin top. You'll be able to locate where the sail sets properly and the blocks should go. This not something to attempt when there are gail warnings. A nice day with moderate winds is the ticket. We had a track each side running fore and aft for the staysail but never moved the block once we located the proper location. You'll need either a standup block or pad eye for a snatch block on either side of the cabin.

The problem with a boom is crappy sail shape once the sheet is eased and it limits the size of the staysail. Unless you have a Hoyt boom, the staysail boom will kite once the sheet is eased putting a big curve in the leech of the sail. Lots of heeling moment and little drive. Some boats have athwartship tracks which solve the problem somewhat until the traveller runs out of track. Then you're back to a crappy setting sail. Ideally the track should be curved to maintain sail shape and run as far to port and stbd as possible. Way easier to sheet the staysail to the cabin top like a jib. Handling the staysail was so easy that the need for self tacking was not a big thing on our W32. The staysail could be easily set up in a second on the opposite tack as the headsails began to luff and then tackle the yankee.
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Old 16-12-2013, 13:44   #9
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Re: boom less, track less staysail advice

I think we have what you are thinking of. Our staysail sheet and blocks have a quick release (carbiner style?) hook and can be attached to one of three points, one at the foot of the mast and one on either side of the deckhouse. And there is are pulleys that remains at the foot of the mast and either side of the deckhouse, so you have 5 possible angles of force on the staysail depending on your heading relative to the wind.

Position one is with both the carbiner hook thingummy attached to the point on, say, the port side of the deckhouse, with the sheet run back through the pulley at the same side, position two you move the carbiner thingummy to the mast, giving about 30% effort to the centre, then you move the sheet free end to the mast, then to the starboard cabin side, then finally move the carbiner thingummy to the starboard cabin side.

So far I have always been able to find a combination that trims the staysail to the conditions I want. Sounds fiddly, but the quick release carbiner thingummy makes it simple, and the forces on the staysail are never such that it is a difficult job to handle the strain on the sheets.

Makes me wonder though as we do have a boom for the staysail, and I don't feel I have needed it yet.

Matt
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Old 16-12-2013, 15:14   #10
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Re: boom less, track less staysail advice

What if I used a single block located on the middle of the deck to allow port and starboard movement - self tacking, with one sheet. Then before this sheet is attached to the clew I run it to a fiddle block to control sail foot shape.

Is this a bad idea?
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Old 16-12-2013, 15:53   #11
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Re: boom less, track less staysail advice

I have never used a jib boom although one came with the boat. I just sheet the staysail to a small bale on the mast. height determined by sheeting angle. for the jib sheet I use a small 4:1 purchase to trim with. when off the wind just barber haul it. when sail is furled, quick disconnect the sheet and store on the mast. good sail shape every point of sail. doesn't take a genius with a slide rule to figure this out. maybe 5 minutes!
\
anyone looking for a staysail boom? its been in the garage for 21 years.
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Old 16-12-2013, 15:56   #12
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Re: boom less, track less staysail advice

Quote:
Originally Posted by Abrain View Post
What if I used a single block located on the middle of the deck to allow port and starboard movement - self tacking, with one sheet. Then before this sheet is attached to the clew I run it to a fiddle block to control sail foot shape.

Is this a bad idea?
probably is, depends on deck strength, never point load the deck.
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Old 16-12-2013, 16:31   #13
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Re: boom less, track less staysail advice

Cabo rico 38 's have a very simple arrangement. 2 blocks affixed on either side of the boom a continuous line is secured on the starboard block goes to the boom a double turning block to the port side block then runs aft to the rear of the cabin top port side where it is cleated off.I'll take a picture tomorrow if it will help.
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Old 16-12-2013, 16:39   #14
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Re: boom less, track less staysail advice

Quote:
Originally Posted by Abrain View Post
What if I used a single block located on the middle of the deck to allow port and starboard movement - self tacking, with one sheet. Then before this sheet is attached to the clew I run it to a fiddle block to control sail foot shape.

Is this a bad idea?
Unless the fiddle block could excert some kind of sideways force, I feel that it won't work, but I can't exactly articulate why, except to say that I see it as a bit like the traveller on the main, you sometimes want more downforce without pulling the sail in too close to the centerline of the boat.

Sheesh! I am so poor on the terminoligy, I am sure there are names for what I am trying to say there.

Matt
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Old 16-12-2013, 16:53   #15
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Re: boom less, track less staysail advice

I had to use a barber hauler type of arrangement on my staysails (track but no boom) Once I figured that out I got them to set real nice. You're gonna need some padeyes around to do it well though. Kinda helps to have the track and then Barber haul from there....for shape. The sheet goes thru the usual track block and then the BH pulls the clew in/out etc for it to set well. Wish I had a pic but dont.
Here maybe this diagram will help about the concept anyway. One of my boats had an athwartship track just in front of the mast, then I barberhauled either from the windward side (pulling the sail in) for going to weather, or outboard for reaching. The other boat had tracks on the cabin top and I did the same thing.
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