Do we need to be preparing for Arctic cruising strategies because of Global Cooling

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by Reefmagnet

Now that's a step in the right direction, but I still think that, to cut through the political correctness barrier, cheap imported Asian sweatshop crap should be taxed to the point that higher priced, higher quality goods become preferred by consumers. Of course, a mechanism to prevent bypassing the system via eBay et al is needed.

Those are some spectacular political blinkers there, fella. You claim to be green but are in the same breath start going off about political correctness, then trade barriers, then blocking the internet, then hissing at CO2 reduction again.

Yiu do know why most of todays electronics are mostly throwaway, yes? Apparently not. It's because the field is still changing and growing so fast. This year's flimsy BluRay player is better than the flimsy one made two years ago. And there will be a better, more efficient playback format in another two years or so (protip, these will be increasingly virtual or streaming formats which only require software and a hella big hard drive or two. ) Or are you content watching your Betamax tapes and Laserdiscs, and accessing the intertubes through your perfectly fine Hayes modem in your trusty ole Pentium tower?

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Ah. Didn't think so.

At least shop local. I'm sure you buy only the products of 100% Australian computer manufacturers.

There was once a society where most products were commoditized for efficient manufacturing, compatibility, to reduce waste and maximize repairability. I think their initials were... USSR.

(I'm not against quality products, really. But there's no point in maximizing repairability when the thing will be tossed in 5 years because there's something different and better. The only solution at this point is to enforce and incent recycling and proper processing)

Now before everyone starts jumping up and down about fossil fuel aka carbon taxes and saying "well isn't that the same thing?" the answer is no. Because a decent Blu-ray player does the same job as a sweatshop model whereas you can't fill up your car with an alternative less CO2 generating fuel. You essentially have to transfer to new technologies.

Funny. You already know what the energy solution has to look like. And the above directly contradicts your point about wanting a Bluray with a 20 year lifespan...

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by SV THIRD DAY

CO2 amigo....
China and India emit enough CO2 that if Canada got rid of all their CO2 and stopped the export of the nasty killer Tar Sands it wouldn't matter.

So playing the China is in for Climate Change BS is just that....talking points. CO2 is either a killer or it isnt.... Ah....but there you have it.

CO2 is a killer when emitted from the Evil USA but harmless and particulate smog counters MMGW when the commies in China do it....ah....protecting their own, just like the so called feminists dont say boo about the war on women in the Islamic world. Not all discrimination is equal...just like CO2 murder.

I am glad we got this lesson right in time for the Christmas holiday...burn that pagan Yule log in the fire and emit the locked up Carbon...but if you pay a carbon tax (read indulgence) your sins are forgiven you.

I think we've found President Trump's ideal pick to run dismantle the EPA.

[Reefmagnet]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

Those are some spectacular political blinkers there, fella. You claim to be green but are in the same breath start going off about political correctness, then trade barriers, then blocking the internet, then hissing at CO2 reduction again.

Yiu do know why most of todays electronics are mostly throwaway, yes? Apparently not. It's because the field is still changing and growing so fast. This year's flimsy BluRay player is better than the flimsy one made two years ago. And there will be a better, more efficient playback format in another two years or so (protip, these will be increasingly virtual or streaming formats which only require software and a hella big hard drive or two. ) Or are you content watching your Betamax tapes and Laserdiscs, and accessing the intertubes through your perfectly fine Hayes modem in your trusty ole Pentium tower?

Ah. Didn't think so.

At least shop local. I'm sure you buy only the products of 100% Australian computer manufacturers.

There was once a society where most products were commoditized for efficient manufacturing, compatibility, to reduce waste and maximize repairability. I think their initials were... USSR.

(I'm not against quality products, really. But there's no point in maximizing repairability when the thing will be tossed in 5 years because there's something different and better. The only solution at this point is to enforce and incent recycling and proper processing)



Funny. You already know what the energy solution has to look like. And the above directly contradicts your point about wanting a Bluray with a 20 year lifespan...

You're obviously not familiar with industrial cnc machines. They don't need replacing every 2 years.

And for the record, my tablet was indeed purchased new. But my z600 workstation and Panasonic toughbook cf19 were purchased used and my iPhone is a hand-me-down. In fact my last tablet was a hand-me-down also. They all work perfectly fine for my purposes. This tablet is the first new piece of computer/phone equipment I've purchased in no less than the last 10 years and I only did so because I couldn't source a good used waterproof tablet to suit my needs. If that makes me an environmental vandal, stiff cheddar.

I'm guessing you'll be lined up at midnight outside your local Apple store the day before the iPhone 7 release passing the wee hours bleating to your fellow fan boys about how your saving the world.

So there.

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[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by Reefmagnet

You're obviously not familiar with industrial cnc machines. They don't need replacing every 2 years.

Outside of my crazy-smart architect friend, I don't know many consumers who own a CNC machine. Nor does CNC technology get old as fast as consumer media devices.

But I would bet that if new technology emerged that rendered current CNC machines economically inefficient, there'd be a whack of them at the recycle depot too.

I'm guessing you'll be lined up at midnight outside your local Apple store the day before the iPhone 7 release passing the wee hours bleating to your fellow fan boys about how your saving the world.

So there.

That would be one wrong guess.

I've probably repaired more electronic equipment, consumer or otherwise, than you've seen. Not bragging; it was my profession prior to the intertubes.

I'm still semi-pro at it, have been accepted as a development beta-tester for a new IoT microcontroller, and I tend to pick up more old electronics from the curb than I put out. I make radios from Soviet military tubes.

I'm an Android user, and also program for it.

I won't line up for anything.

(Ok. Your turn. or maybe I could stop picking on you. Christmas and all...)

[Reefmagnet]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

Outside of my crazy-smart architect friend, I don't know many consumers who own a CNC machine. Nor does CNC technology get old as fast as consumer media devices.

But I would bet that if new technology emerged that rendered current CNC machines economically inefficient, there'd be a whack of them at the recycle depot too.



That would be one wrong guess.

I've probably repaired more electronic equipment, consumer or otherwise, than you've seen. Not bragging; it was my profession prior to the intertubes.

I'm still semi-pro at it, have been accepted as a beta-tester for a new IoT device, and I tend to pick up more old electronics from the curb than I put out. I make radios from Soviet military tubes.

I'm an Android user, and also program for it.

I won't line up for anything.

(Ok. Your turn. or maybe I could stop picking on you. Christmas and all...)

As an electrical engineer that once specialised in industrial robotics and cnc machinery that sea changed to IT and is the author of a couple of half decent industrial productivity software applications, I don't really think your assumptions hold, either.

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[Capt Phil]

Not sure whether I'm a denier or agreeier but to my feeble way of thinking, it takes one hell of a lot of hubris and feeling full of ones self to think you can influence weather, climate the melting or building of ice caps! Just sayin'... Phil

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by Reefmagnet

As an electrical engineer that once specialised in industrial robotics and cnc machinery that sea changed to IT and is the author of a couple of half decent industrial productivity software applications, I don't really think your assumptions hold, either.

I had few assumptions about your ability or background, other than the IT thing, but c'mon, you were somewhat out to lunch with

to cut through the political correctness barrier, cheap imported Asian sweatshop crap should be taxed to the point that higher priced, higher quality goods become preferred by consumers. Of course, a mechanism to prevent bypassing the system via eBay et al is needed.

... In what (free) world would that be possible, let alone desirable?

btw the Chinese are now a few years past the sweatshop stage. That cheap Bluray player you deride has alot of sophisticated design in there. The majority of them do survive for their expected lifespan which is determined mainly by obsolescence. And who is going to pay a western repair shop $60+ an hour to repair a $100 Bluray player?

Like Japan through the 70s and 80s, China is starting to innovate. And the Chinese combination of "managed' capitalism and state-supported industry is going to see them rocket past us in the west. While we're debating climate change in the west, they will probably develop most of the technology that will get us past it. They're eating our lunch.

We should probably all learn to cook, and hope that the Chinese develop a taste for "Western" takeout.

[Reefmagnet]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

... In what (free) world would that be possible, let alone desirable?

The same free world it would be possible to halt atmospheric co2 ppm increase?



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[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by Reefmagnet

The same free world it would be possible to halt atmospheric co2 ppm increase?

With smart people like you lining up against doing anything... You're right it's not possible.

[Reefmagnet]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

With smart people like you lining up against doing anything... You're right it's not possible.

Hang on. My favourite car is 24 years old, my company car that I brought new is coming up to 8 years old and burns less than 5 litres per 100 km and my preferred mode of transportation is a motor scooter. And our boat of choice is a sailboat.

And whilst my blu ray player had to be junked, my pool pump, Gerni and hot water heater have all been repaired and given another lease on life in the past week

Oh yeah, our house's fully ducted air con packed it in through lack of use a fair while back and it's replacement is low on the list of priorities.

I sleep at night practising what I preach and live in hope that others will do the same. I still think the idea of lowering co2 content is pie in the sky, however, and is detracting away from other issues.

http://www.skepticalscience.com/imag...vels_Knorr.gif

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[Reefmagnet]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

btw the Chinese are now a few years past the sweatshop stage.

Say hello to Foxconn for me

That cheap Bluray player you deride has alot of sophisticated design in there. The majority of them do survive for their expected lifespan which is determined mainly by obsolescence. And who is going to pay a western repair shop $60+ an hour to repair a $100 Bluray player?

You know, when I was a kid we actually had TV repair men that came to the house and fixed the telly when it broke. Of course they were all crooks who took the opportunity to snip wires to make their bill bigger, but the system worked. Ditto for fridges, washers and a lot of other things. If you purchased this gear it was expensive but you expected it to last a long time and there was a whole industry of assorted servicemen.

Not so now. The alleged sweatshop forces the big players down to their level to compete which just snowballs the problem. As you say, so cheap not worth repairing. In they weren't cheap and worth repairing instead, would that not be better? If you're a trendsetter and want the latest - fine go buy the latest and hand down or sell your old gear to someone else who'll be happy with it instead of junking it to landfill.

If you think the above is a silly suggestion then I suggest you are a victim of consumerism.

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[GoingWalkabout]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

I had few assumptions about your ability or background, other than the IT thing, but c'mon, you were somewhat out to lunch with

... In what (free) world would that be possible, let alone desirable?

btw the Chinese are now a few years past the sweatshop stage. That cheap Bluray player you deride has alot of sophisticated design in there. The majority of them do survive for their expected lifespan which is determined mainly by obsolescence. And who is going to pay a western repair shop $60+ an hour to repair a $100 Bluray player?

Like Japan through the 70s and 80s, China is starting to innovate. And the Chinese combination of "managed' capitalism and state-supported industry is going to see them rocket past us in the west. While we're debating climate change in the west, they will probably develop most of the technology that will get us past it. They're eating our lunch.

We should probably all learn to cook, and hope that the Chinese develop a taste for "Western" takeout.

From first hand knowledge China is indeed moving into Robotics in a big way. Two main focuses out of Beijing now for their command economy. Creating a domestic high consumption (consumer) market. The other is embracing the use of robotics throughout their manufacturing industry. The move to robotics is because they realize they can't compete with the labor costs of Cambodia and Vietnam. The reason for developing their own mass consumer market is so that they don't have to rely on the United States. This is a future problem because at the moment China needs a successful USA to sell into. When they have developed their own consumer market the need for peace with the USA is greatly diminished. Anyway, that is another subject.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by GoingWalkabout

this is a future problem because at the moment China needs a successful USA to sell into. When they have developed their own consumer market the need for peace with the USA is greatly diminished. Anyway, that is another subject.

So after the Chinese become as bad of a consumer country as the USA is they won't need to be nice to us. The possible result is what has been historicly the prime population control a major armed conflict between two opponents that are closely matched . ( thereby removing many of breeding age from the equasion) and if it goes far enough the result will be man induced ice age?

[jackdale]

Originally Posted by Capt Phil

Not sure whether I'm a denier or agreeier but to my feeble way of thinking, it takes one hell of a lot of hubris and feeling full of ones self to think you can influence weather, climate the melting or building of ice caps! Just sayin'... Phil

I think the belief that we can dump trillions of CO2 into the atmosphere, raising the concentrations to levels not seen in 3-5 millions years, is ludicrous.

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by GoingWalkabout

From first hand knowledge China is indeed moving into Robotics in a big way. Two main focuses out of Beijing now for their command economy. Creating a domestic high consumption (consumer) market. The other is embracing the use of robotics throughout their manufacturing industry. The move to robotics is because they realize they can't compete with the labor costs of Cambodia and Vietnam. The reason for developing their own mass consumer market is so that they don't have to rely on the United States. This is a future problem because at the moment China needs a successful USA to sell into. When they have developed their own consumer market the need for peace with the USA is greatly diminished. Anyway, that is another subject.

We will, sooner or later need these energy alternatives, and renewable/sustainable energy is a HUGE business opportunity. One of the things that kills me about the whole AGW battle, is that by stalling while we bicker, instead of serious investment and government support, other nations will simply blow past the US and take the lead in this field.

I think that's called a Pyrrhic victory, for the anti-AGW side.