Will a boat trimmed by the head have increased weather helm?

[Don C L]

It does sound like you have the weight out of balance bow and stern, but 12 gallons and the chain is not a lot. I have roughly that in the bow of my boat which is considerably smaller. Besides the dinghy is there anything else up there? While I think it's a good idea to get the boat balanced, my first thought was the main, it may be too baggy and you may have it sheeted in too tight for what the boat can do upwind. It may be just ruddering the boat into the wind. (I am guessing you have a low aspect rig.) And if I have my Genoa up in 15 kts, I am overpowered and I'll be heeling too much (and yanking on the tiller too much.) How much are you heeling? I will sometimes have my genoa up and the main reefed once when reaching and that's a nice combo for me, but not for upwind. For me the working jib (100) is best for upwind in 10-15 kts. You might try switching to a smaller headsail. Just rolling it up may work ok, if your headsail still has decent shape. You might ask a sailmaker about adding a flattening reef to the main too, that's a fairly cheap addition.

edit: I just looked at your boat and I would guess that the 150 in 15 kts upwind may be more the culprit. I am guessing you are heeled more than 15 degrees, right?

[rkarakai21]

Thanks for the thoughts so far folks. Some clarification on some of these points.

I don't sail in sustained 15 knots with the full 150 genoa, I roll it up to working jib size, as i've found the full genoa seems to exacerbate weather helm once you reach a certain windspeed. When I said 10-15 knots windspeed I meant 10 knots sustained with gusts reaching 15.

I don't have a clinometer but from my estimation the amount of heel at this windspeed is moderate, rail is nowhere near the water. She isn't super tender, it takes a decent breeze to get her heeling.

In terms of what is "up forward" of the mast in cruising trim.

The heavy fiberglass dingy, I estimate 150 lbs. Sits with it's transom butted against the mainmast and bow resting on the bitts. I plan on finding a smaller, lighter dingy that will sit between the dodger and aft the mast under the boom before heading offshore.

We have a 33lb Vulcan resting on the bowsprit roller, a teak plank style bowsprit. A maxwell freedom 800 windlass reportedly weighing in at 36.6 lbs, 100 feet of 5/16" chain, 100 feet of 5/8" 3 strand rode, 100 feet of spare 5/8 nylon line, a small stainless bar-b-q in the chain locker as well.

In the v- birth one 12 gallon stainless watertank.

No, the vessel has never had an engine swap, she still has the original though rebuilt 2QM20 Yanmar.

Diesel tankage aft currently is two 12 gallon plastic tanks, just aft of the engine. I suspect the previous tanks each had more than double that, as the vacant space aft where they could have sat is large, and the previous owner mentioned they were huge steel tanks, but in bad shape.

We carry our spare Bruce aft lashed to the pushpit, and have some solar panels on a stainless frame arrangement at the stern, but theres not a whole lot of serious weight aft.

Really I don't think what we have stored forward is excessive, I definitely won't be downsizing my groundtackle, it hooks well and has never let us down.

From talking to other Roughwater owners it is evident that these boats carry a heavy helm, and in one case I spoke to an owner whose rudder started to delaminate on an offshore passage due to the excessive forces on it.

I've also discussed the trim issue with some other owners. One boat mitigated it by having the dingy aft, adding lead ballast aft, and directing the anchor chain into the v-birth bilge through a chainpipe (though with that arrangement, im sure you'd have to have someone down there hauling the chain aft and flaking it, otherwise it would jam)

In terms of sail trim, we have tried everything, yes, we use the traveller as appropriate. Yes the main has tell tails, and we are usually able to get them all flying. The Genoa is in like new condition, probably only a year or two old when we bought the boat. It's on a Harken furler.

It is true that she seems like when we crack off a little, into close reach territory. We don't usually crank the traveller right up to windward unless we are doing a bunch of short tacking out of a narrow bay or something like that.

I definitely plan on doing a test sail this spring with the water empty, dingy off the bow, chain and anchor off the bow. Empty chain locker and full diesel tanks. Just to see how she handles.

Overall I'm quite happy with her performance, she has no trouble reaching to a bit over 7 knots fairly regularly, in a fresh quartering or beam breeze. Saw 8.2kn once in 25 knots on the stern with too much mainsail set, had one reef, should have tucked two. A couple times now we have held our own and passed some more modern cruising yachts of similar size in good reaching conditions.

I am more concerned about the longevity of the rudder for offshore passagemaking. So hopefully getting her sitting on her lines will ease her helm a bit. It might also be the case that the main is too old and has too much draught.

In terms of mast bend, I currently have the mast tuned with a slight aft bend. I don't have an adjustable backstay or a very bendy mast, she's quite stout, so I can get a little bit of tuneabililty there but not a ton, and not really something we can quickly tweak as were sailing.

Might have to borrow some 50 lb lead ingots and start getting creative shifting weights around.

[Bowdrie]

Originally Posted by rkarakai21

I don't sail in sustained 15 knots with the full 150 genoa, I roll it up to working jib size, as i've found the full genoa seems to exacerbate weather helm once you reach a certain windspeed. When I said 10-15 knots windspeed I meant 10 knots sustained with gusts reaching 15.

Perhaps my 2cents is only worth a Farthing.
A 150 genoa is a really big sail, it is for LIGHT air.
And when you roll a 150 up to a "working jib" size you've got this huge sausage on your headstay that does not help the airflow across the luff.
That never helps a sail to develop lift.
It might not be doable, but I got a sneaky feeling that if you took off the 150 and replaced it with a "working jib", (that's really ~a 80>90%,) or a 120 that only had a few "rolls" in it you'd find your performance in 10>15Kts of wind to be better when close hauled.

[Don C L]

I tend to agree. I have hank-on sails now but I used to sail a Cat 36, 32 and Downeast 38 that all had 150
headsails on furlers. That’s nice for light air afternoons in So Cal but when I wanted to go upwind when the wind piped up, and I rolled up the Genoa a bit, the shape and horsepower offered never was very good. Just more drag than drive. But it’s a trade off for the convenience of roller furling. Now this was years ago and I know headsails have improved, but still, to make furling reefing work well the clew has to be so high that it also doesn’t do much for upwind drive I think. I’m happy to be proven wrong on that though.
My boat has the keel hung rudder, and like the OP a little on the small side, so when I try to fight weather helm with it it acts more like a brake than rudder. The sooner I balance the sails by reefing or easing the main sheet, the better for the rudder and performance (although I don’t have any delaminating problems.) So as I said previously my long keel boat likes a working jib going upwind and o suspect the same will be true for the OP’s boat.
Some might argue that the Genoa should fight against weather helm since it is a large area of sail that can push the bow leeward. It doesn’t work that way going upwind IME. It just adds to heeling which aggravates weather helm.

[rkarakai21]

I’m in absolute agreement about the last two points here. I’m used to old gaffers with hank on headsails and when I bought my boat and rolled my Genoa in to working jib size for the first time I thought about this too, the sail shape is garbage, the leading edge being this big saggy sausage on the furler. The roller furling sure is convenient but I would rather have a nice tight luffed working jib. That is definitely a priority before we head offshore. I might even decide to nix the roller furling when I’m replacing the standing rig. The ideal sail plan id like to have for voyaging will be a triple reef main, removable inner forestay with a heavyweight reefable staysail, and a nice working jib, and drifter for light airs.

Im sure I’ll be surprised at the difference with a crispy new main and a well cut working jib.

Should with the right sailmaker able to design the jib and staysail to maximize the slot effect, and not lose out too much by not using a large overlapping Genoa.

[rslifkin]

Originally Posted by rkarakai21

I’m in absolute agreement about the last two points here. I’m used to old gaffers with hank on headsails and when I bought my boat and rolled my Genoa in to working jib size for the first time I thought about this too, the sail shape is garbage, the leading edge being this big saggy sausage on the furler. The roller furling sure is convenient but I would rather have a nice tight luffed working jib. That is definitely a priority before we head offshore. I might even decide to nix the roller furling when I’m replacing the standing rig. The ideal sail plan id like to have for voyaging will be a triple reef main, removable inner forestay with a heavyweight reefable staysail, and a nice working jib, and drifter for light airs.

Im sure I’ll be surprised at the difference with a crispy new main and a well cut working jib.

Should with the right sailmaker able to design the jib and staysail to maximize the slot effect, and not lose out too much by not using a large overlapping Genoa.

Partially furled sails definitely don't work as well. However, there's nothing that stops you from having multiple sails on board and changing out the sail on the furler. You don't have to drop and stow the sail every time, but you switch based on the upcoming weather. So if it's going to be windy for a few days, you keep the smaller jib on the furler. If you're in a low wind period, you keep the big jib ready to go.

[rkarakai21]

There are some other factors that have me considering whether or not I’ll be keeping the roller furling, I know that I could have an expanded inventory with furling headsails. The standing rig is going to be remade in heat set Dyneema and I’m weighing whether or not I’ll keep a stainless forestay with roller furling or keep the whole rig the same material and use softshackle hanks for the headsail.

[Don C L]

Yes. For me it’s actually a close call. I really like the superior airfoil and hence horsepower of my hank-on but I am not a fan of rolling around on my small wet foredeck changing from Genoa to jib! And the convenience of roller furling does translate to greater safety since you don’t have to go forward to douse the sail. Still all-in-all the hank-on is still worth it for my particular uses.
Of course there are foils that allow for changing furling headsails too. I just can’t afford em.

[Kd9truck]

I have a 140% Genoa that flattens out nicely at 100%. It’s fairly new 4 years old, for me it’s not the shape that is an issue but the windage high on the forestay. I have plans to add a inerstay and cutter rig it. It will be a rollerfurler, I’ll fuss with reefing my traditional main but I short hand mostly the convenience and safety is more important to me than 1-4° of pointing.
Cheers

[rkarakai21]

Absolutely. We all have different requirements for our boats based on usage and whether we have crew or not. I will be double handing 99 percent of the time with my partner. It might be that we leave the forestay roller but keep the staysail simple, Hank on. There is also a big cost factor with buying roller furling units. Money Id rather spend on bronze chainplates than having two roller furling units. Cheers!

[gordonhinds]

The jib can cause weather helm more than the main particularly if it’s a high aspect main with a short boom. 150% is way too big. Get it cut down to 120% on furler or buy a jib second hand that is smaller on the foot and flatter cut. If you have the budget get a cruising code zero (you might not have room for it if you have a masthead Genoa). But the jib is likely to be the cause for weather helm and yes the bow down wouldn’t help either.

[barryglewis]

Originally Posted by fourlyons

Trimming a boat down by the bow is functionally equivalent to raking the mast forward, this brings the center of effort forward relative to the center of lateral resistance. All other things equal, this will reduce weather helm.

Possibly a slip of the pen?

Trimming down by the bow will increase weather helm.

Trimming down by the stern will decrease weather helm, tend to lee helm.

Experiment by loading the cockpit with water containers or perhaps better people.
See what effects you get as you have them move for and aft

[fourlyons]

Originally Posted by barryglewis

Possibly a slip of the pen?

Trimming down by the bow will increase weather helm.

Trimming down by the stern will decrease weather helm, tend to lee helm.

Experiment by loading the cockpit with water containers or perhaps better people.
See what effects you get as you have them move for and aft

Do you ever sail your boat with only the jib, this has the effect of bringing the center of effort forward? How does the helm balance behave?
Significant weight redistribution that causes the hull to trim differently can certainly change the way the hull is balanced. But, as I said, "all other things equal", moving the center of effort forward reduces weather helm.

[wholybee]

Originally Posted by fourlyons

Do you ever sail your boat with only the jib, this has the effect of bringing the center of effort forward? How does the helm balance behave?
Significant weight redistribution that causes the hull to trim differently can certainly change the way the hull is balanced. But, as I said, "all other things equal", moving the center of effort forward reduces weather helm.

All things are not equal. If the bow is down, you are also moving the center of lateral resistance forward.

[hpeer]

We recently installed a ReefRite roller furler and are bery happy with it for multiple reasons.

One of which is the sail attaches with lugs, more like a main sail. So you can drop the sail down on deck while it is still attached to the furler. This makes it much more like a hanked on sail, far easier to change sails. Especially single handed.