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Old 26-10-2017, 08:48   #1
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A larger head sail can cause weather helm? and about that clew height...

In an academic sense an overlapping head sail on a typical sloop (IOR and newer, bolt on keel, balanced spade rudder type), such as 150% of the fore triangle could cause weather helm in 2 ways:

1. The additional sail area compared to 100% foretriangle size is behind the mast, possibly behind the overall center of effort

2. over powered if the wind picks up causing more than ideal heeling, and resulting weatherhelm.

Also Mr. Dashew tells us a higher clew is desireable when we crack off to a beam reach or more.

What say ye out in the real world? I am missing the actual time on the water sailing to connect these dots, and your input is appreciated
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Old 26-10-2017, 09:02   #2
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Re: A larger head sail can cause weather helm? and about that clew height...

There's a good bit of discussion & explanation about what you're asking in this thread.
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ml#post2471136
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Old 26-10-2017, 09:20   #3
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Re: A larger head sail can cause weather helm? and about that clew height...

Well, it's possible, but by the time you reach that wind which will cause excessive helm with a 150+, you should have a reef in anyway which negates the problem to a larger extent.
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Old 26-10-2017, 09:23   #4
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Re: A larger head sail can cause weather helm? and about that clew height...

Certainly a 150 is more prone to inducing weather helm.

Where I sail there are often areas with geography induced gusts that exceed the comfort of a full 150. Typically we ride them out because as soon as the sail is furled, we're back to needing the full 150.

But in general I'd rather furl the 150 than stick with a 110.
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Old 27-10-2017, 10:03   #5
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Re: A larger head sail can cause weather helm? and about that clew height...

Yes it can have that effect compared to a smalled headsail but still needs to be combined with a mainsail. Just a 150 genoa on its own when overpowered is likely to cause lee helm.

And yes a higher clew headsail is always much better for reaching. Think of it looking from above, a higher clew sheets much further aft which is effectivley allowing the clew to sit further outboard. Low clew sheets forward so whem the sail is eased its pulling the clew back into the boat.
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Old 27-10-2017, 12:15   #6
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Re: A larger head sail can cause weather helm? and about that clew height...

If you're contemplating new sails, let me also suggest you pay attention to where your car tracks are located. We bought our boat and sailed with a 150% for several years, and although the decksweeper 150% was good in Hong Kong, it was way over canvased in the PI. By the time we got to the Medd, we downsized to a 130%, and even that was to much sail....we routinely sailed with at least some rolled on the furler. We now have a 105%.....but did NOT pay attention to the track location. We should have!!!
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Old 27-10-2017, 14:43   #7
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Re: A larger head sail can cause weather helm? and about that clew height...

It's all about type of boat. After cyclon Marcia I was fitted with new furler and head sail. Profesionally set up for my boat , sailing 90% head sail only , I was looking forward nice sailing after 20 years Genoa was gone. In fact the boat was different boat and struggle to pick up the cruising speed, and was unusually leanning. Talking to sailmaker and the other yachtees, lots of suggestions but no solution. In fact from first sail , I new the problem, could not get message through to sailmaker to verify the problem.
My boas is a shallow keel, having clue over a one meter above safety lines, was the reason, I was loosing too much air between the cabin an sail. After Genoa was modified to drop down to safety lines, regardles of loosing a meter on top, boats was back, behaving , cruising well.
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Old 27-10-2017, 14:59   #8
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Re: A larger head sail can cause weather helm? and about that clew height...

I know you guys don’t much appreciate racers chiming in. Frers 33.
We will typically ease main until there’s a bubble at the mast - maybe even only the last 1 foot of the main drawing. If that’s not enough, then ease the genny till it’s got a bubble at the forestay (I’m talking close-hauled here) that’s usually enough to keep the rail out of the water, maintain heading & speed.

Once we have helm control, we’ll feather up into the gusts, to depower the sails - this allows us to keep pointing high, maintain speed & heading.

If we’re on the ball, we’ll feather up first, & mostly avoid having to ease sails.

Once we round the windward mark, we have BIG sails to go off the wind, and mostly can then fly a chute. If after rounding we’re way over hull speed, we may not bother with the spinnaker.

Knowing your boat, and sail trim will make most of this easy to manage. Get out and do it it a few times, & you’ll be more comfortable in these conditions.

Good luck! Have fun!
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Old 27-10-2017, 16:00   #9
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Re: A larger head sail can cause weather helm? and about that clew height...

I had the misfortune of delivering one boat with a low cut 140% genoa on a furler.

A miserable thing! As soon as the sheets were eased, the head twisted off, and dragging the car forward just bagged up the foot, then to make matters worse the foot of the sail fouled the lifelines and every wave would dump into the baggy foot near the bow.

It wasn't pretty and it wasn't fast. By now any smart racing boat would have switched to a jibtop or a genniker or some other high cut reaching sail, or bore away and set the kite. We were stuck just wishing the sailmaker had cut the foot a few feet higher.

Booboo's comments are spot on.

I have often wondered if having a higher reaching clew might work on some sails.
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Old 27-10-2017, 16:11   #10
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Re: A larger head sail can cause weather helm? and about that clew height...

My last boat had a 130% headsail and a “standard” size main and my current boat has a 110% 3/4 fractional rig with a larger main. The first boat had a LOT more weather helm and took a lot more rudder to steer.
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Old 27-10-2017, 17:06   #11
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Re: A larger head sail can cause weather helm? and about that clew height...

Certainly it is easy to be overpowered with a larger headsail, and then yer rounding up, but also the condition of the headsail is in the mix. If it is older and blown out, the draft will be more aft , no? In any event with one reef in the main and a 130 I have a very light touch on the tiller, before that she’s fine up to 15 knots or so and then she’s overpowered. Oh yeah, I have a full battened main, that should be considered in the mix too.
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Old 28-10-2017, 07:55   #12
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Re: A larger head sail can cause weather helm? and about that clew height...

Clew height in your primary roller furling headsail can't be set really lowI since you want to keep it clear of seas when poled out in rolly conditions. But designing the sail to this lower limit should help weather helm since the same sail area can be kept lower to cause less heel and the clew lead farther forward.


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Old 28-10-2017, 08:06   #13
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Re: A larger head sail can cause weather helm? and about that clew height...

I started the thread that uncivilised mentioned because I know what your talking about, yes I get the should cause Lee helm thing but the reality in certain conditions the big genoa was causing weather helm and partly furling it wasn't the answer, the main was not the cause of the issue . A 13 day passage gives you plenty of time to try things and reflect and I'm convinced the big genoa has limitations. I've now purchased the code zero, and are going with my 100% jib. Haven't fitted it yet.
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Old 28-10-2017, 10:10   #14
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Re: A larger head sail can cause weather helm? and about that clew height...

Yes it does. The sail is an aerofoil transferring momentum into the boat. Action and reaction means that a proportion of that ends up pushing the nose up to wind. To prove it simply reduce the amount of genoa and feel the weather helm disappear. Ever tried bearing away in a hurry with your 110% genoa fully out and sheeted? no chance.
Of course, in theory, you can use this to steer the boat without a rudder. Never tried it myself
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Old 28-10-2017, 10:39   #15
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Re: A larger head sail can cause weather helm? and about that clew height...

Quote:
Originally Posted by davewtsnape View Post
Yes it does. The sail is an aerofoil transferring momentum into the boat. Action and reaction means that a proportion of that ends up pushing the nose up to wind. To prove it simply reduce the amount of genoa and feel the weather helm disappear. Ever tried bearing away in a hurry with your 110% genoa fully out and sheeted? no chance.
Of course, in theory, you can use this to steer the boat without a rudder. Never tried it myself
Steering with sails is doable though most rarely try it. I was on a delivery where the boat, Frers 65, lost its rudder. We wrestled with 3 or 4 headsails for most of a day to get the right combo for the boat (no furler for that racer) and we managed to get her to balance and steer pretty well with sheeting on two tacks, but neither one took us to friendly territory. It was actually fun to mess with it and make it work, but headsails for a 90 foot mast are not that comfy to handle on the foredeck.
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