Where did I go wrong?

[valhalla360]

Sounds like a classic chain of events scenario. Change any one of them and it's a non-issue.

At this point, doing a post mortem as you have is the best you can do and hopefully next time, you are able to break one or more of the links.

[svfinlandia]

Originally Posted by Jammer

I am surprised that the Genoa sheets would be long enough to foul the propeller while the Genoa is rolled up. Extra length on lines is nothing but trouble.

I caught that also. My Genoa sheets will not reach past the stern for that very reason, but yet are perfectly long enough to be useful.

Al, S/V Finlandia

[Talbot]

Originally Posted by svfinlandia

I caught that also. My Genoa sheets will not reach past the stern for that very reason, but yet are perfectly long enough to be useful.

Al, S/V Finlandia

This totally depends on the boat and deck layout. If I am deep reaching I frequently change to a turning block right aft - normally for my spinnaker or asymmetric. My winch is at the front of the cockpit. Thus genoa lines would be long enough to entangle with my props.

However, I have cutters on both props.

The idea of not using your winch for the furling is nice, but not feasible on my boat, due to my strength and genoa size.

30 kt gust on a 40ft boat should have been unremarkable, so something else must have been happening - maybe a micro burst or something similar. I had a much higher gust in bay of biscay, and was under full sail at the time, If you can't handle it under those circumstances turn almost downwind until you have sorted the genoa, then turn back and sort your main. (This dependent on which sail is the main driver on your boat.)

If you have had this happen to you, make a really close inspection on your sails. I found some stitching ripped and had to get it repaired.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by wingssail

"Madness"? your rigid view of the world is madness.







"Racers use hanked on sails and have fit young crew.".



Not true either. None of it. Only some bigger high-end boats these days are moving back towards hanked on sails. It is more common these days to see race boats with roller furling headsails on, and they will be small headsails, 100% usually. But racing boats everywhere in the world change headsails on a regular basis. There is no reason why cruising boats cannot do the same.



"Young, fit crew"? Fit?, yes, young?, not exclusively. High end professional programs attract young ('ish, 40's like) talented sailors for crew with older afterguard, but many racers, like ourselves, are geriatric sets. Even guys like Roy Disney and his bunch sailing the lasted iteration of Pyewacket are mostly senior citizens.



Goboatingnow, you have some rigid ideas totally detached from reality, and you are completely adamant about them, no flexibility at all. I just want to shake my head and laugh out loud

Youre right, sailing ( and racing since 17) 40,000 sea miles , RYA commercial Yachtmaster Ocean , former RYA Cruising Instructor , ASA certified skipper , dozens of sailBoat deliveries and large amounts of heavy weather deep sea experience ( several trans oceanic ) across a range of largely modern boats has given me ( or taught me forcefully ) what I write in these forums.

I met Roy Disney once at cork week , he had a very fit crew. I know many of the crew on «Chieftain “ a former renowned ocean racer , I had dinner with its former owner recently

This isn’t about racing boats.

This is about a typical husband and wife sailing in the med. they will have a stock production boat , these days 45 feet to 50 being common ( my 6 boats that I’m friendly with have all ended up as two up 50 footers )

They will have single typically 120-130% roller furling headsail. This is a “ huge “ sail that sail will be there one and only headsail

Increasingly they will have in-mast furling which is a great step forward.

The first thing is sending someone forward in a blow at night is a risky and potentially fatal experience. Add in age , fear and uncertain expertise and it’s a “ madness “ decision

Are you seriously telling me you would “ order “ your wife forward “ in those conditions. madness

Nobody in a modern cruising boat changes conventional roller furling headsails least of all on the night in a blow. The manufacturer doesn’t intend them to be used that way

Secondly there is zero absolutely zero need to remove that headsail. Simply either reef it down or fuel it away. Modern headsails can function well reefed , not the most efficient but it doesn’t matter.

It’s people like you suggesting madcap schemes ( or carrying multiple foresails ) are detached from reality.

Three boats I know left recently from Greece to cross the Atlantic , all used a single standard 120-130% headsail , two had in-mast , 1 is a stack pack. ( single line reefing )

No other sails are being carried

Two have already arrived safely

That’s the reality , that’s what I see around me in the 600 boats on my current marina. That’s what I’ve seen in 20 years of sailing most parts of the med.
My ideas are based firmly on the “reality “ I see around me not on some hypothetical situation you postulate

By the way seriously show me where modern cruising boats are adopting hanked on headsails. Please now you have me laughing . I’d say i have not seen one cruising boat built since 2000 with hanked on , seriously it’s nonsense.

[rslifkin]

Plenty of people change sails with furlers. Just not as frequently as one might otherwise.

[wingssail]

Congratulations on your years of sailing experience and credentials, It is good to know that your opinions are based on something other than, well, "opinion". But that doesn't make them any more correct.

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

...They will have single typically 120-130% roller furling headsail. This is a “ huge “ sail that sail will be there one and only headsail...

That is most unfortunate. So many boats modern and otherwise, perform better and more safely, with smaller headsails. In 20 knots of wind or above (often in 15-18 knots of wind and above) these boats will sail better, have less heel, and be much better balanced with a headsail under 100%, and in higher winds, with reefed mainsails. A 120-130% sail rolled down to 100% or less will be very inefficient, despite what the sailmakers tell you.

So if a crew are uncomfortable with changing sail they would be well advised to set a smaller sail on the furler. (I mentioned this, I guess you didn't see that). That doesn't mean they have to change it underway. They could put a smaller sail on the furler before they leave port.

Increasingly they will have in-mast furling which is a great step forward.

The first thing is sending someone forward in a blow at night is a risky and potentially fatal experience. Add in age , fear and uncertain expertise and it’s a “ madness “ decision

Are you seriously telling me you would “ order “ your wife forward “ in those conditions. madness

Going to sea on a boat is a potentially fatal experience. Going forward is normal work on a sailboat. There is no reason to instill fear about this task. There is no justification for calling it madness. You should temper your verbage, this is a friendly forum.

Let's acknowledge your sailing credentials but work a little on your reading skills. I have not mentioned or alluded to "sending" anyone forward. Where did you read that? And I don't order my wife to do anything. Where did you read that?

We are a team on our boat, and have equal skill levels in our own areas and each contribute in our own way. If work needs to be done on the foredeck, or aloft, in heavy weather I usually do it. She, however, often goes onto the foredeck to strike a sail.

Would going forward to take down a spinnaker in 25 knots of wind, or to drop a jib coming into an anchorage in 20 knots or more be madness? We both do it, at times. In heavy weather (but I don't consider that to be heavy weather) I am happy to do those jobs because I don't want to see her hurt. Yes, going forward in a storm is dangerous, but in my 50+ plus years on sailboats or before that in powerboats, I have never been injured, (nor has she), nor has anyone on any boat I've been sailing on. And I spent plenty of time on a foredeck. You are preaching fear and making claims about danger and "madness" you cannot substantiate.

Nobody in a modern cruising boat changes conventional roller furling headsails least of all on the night in a blow. The manufacturer doesn’t intend them to be used that way

Can you substantiate that furler manufacturers don't intent that people change sails? And by the way, why do they put two grooves on their foils?

Secondly there is zero absolutely zero need to remove that headsail. Simply either reef it down or fuel it away. Modern headsails can function well reefed , not the most efficient but it doesn’t matter.

It’s people like you suggesting madcap schemes ( or carrying multiple foresails ) are detached from reality.

Three boats I know left recently from Greece to cross the Atlantic , all used a single standard 120-130% headsail , two had in-mast , 1 is a stack pack. ( single line reefing )

No other sails are being carried

Two have already arrived safely

That’s the reality , that’s what I see around me in the 600 boats on my current marina. That’s what I’ve seen in 20 years of sailing most parts of the med.
My ideas are based firmly on the “reality “ I see around me not on some hypothetical situation you postulate

By the way seriously show me where modern cruising boats are adopting hanked on headsails. Please now you have me laughing . I’d say i have not seen one cruising boat built since 2000 with hanked on , seriously it’s nonsense.
Reading skills, Mr goboatingnow, reading skills. I wrote that some modern high end racing boats are using hanks

Now why don't you quit sputtering in your beard about madness and nonsense and orders and hypothetical situations and consider that your views might not be the only right views. You would be good to have some respect for the views of other with backgrounds equal to your own but different experiences.

Photo: Going forward is not such a big deal. This is me on the bow while sailing on a close reach in about 28 knots true in the Aghulas current off Africa. I needed to secure a genoa which we had earlier dropped onto deck and bring it back, which I did. Later, after several hours of hove-to due to large jarring seas, I went aloft to reattach a check stay. You do what you have to do.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by rslifkin

Plenty of people change sails with furlers. Just not as frequently as one might otherwise.

I can honestly say it happened to me once on a delivery cause we blew out the main headsail and as the boat had a cutter stay we raised that one.

That crew had four fit men and was daylight

I would strongly argue “ plenty of people “ is way way overstated. I am sitting with 20 skippers tomorrow , I,ll do a straw pole but I suspect “ plenty “ will not be the result.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

...I would strongly argue “ plenty of people “ is way way overstated. I am sitting with 20 skippers tomorrow , I,ll do a straw pole but I suspect “ plenty “ will not be the result.

You are probably right, but perhaps more should consider it.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by wingssail

Congratulations on your years of sailing experience and credentials, It is good to know that your opinions are based on something other than, well, "opinion". But that doesn't make them any more correct.







Now why don't you quit sputtering in your beard about madness and nonsense and orders and hypothetical situations and consider that your views might not be the only right views. You would be good to have some respect for the views of other with backgrounds equal to your own but different experiences.



Photo: Going forward is not such a big deal. This is me on the bow while sailing on a close reach in about 28 knots true in the Aghulas current off Africa. I needed to secure a genoa which we had earlier dropped onto deck and bring it back, which I did. Later, after several hours of hove-to due to large jarring seas, I went aloft to reattach a check stay. You do what you have to do.

Age sex , experience of that crew.

I’m not arguing about going forward

I’m arguing pulling down a big Genoa on a typically husband and wife standard production boat on a med blow at night is madness.

That’s what I’m arguing. I’ve ocean raced with hank on headsails. Completely different situation.

Telling a guy who reacted badly in 30 knots T night in the med , his wife needs to go forward to pull down a big Genoa ( to be replaced by what ) now that’s madness.

I’m not saying all circumstances are madness I’m saying in relation to the OP the advice is madness. It’s also totally unnecessarily to boot

[rslifkin]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

I can honestly say it happened to me once on a delivery cause we blew out the main headsail and as the boat had a cutter stay we raised that one.

That crew had four fit men and was daylight

I would strongly argue “ plenty of people “ is way way overstated. I am sitting with 20 skippers tomorrow , I,ll do a straw pole but I suspect “ plenty “ will not be the result.

It may be a regional thing. Outside of racing I don't see a lot of people changing sails underway, but I see plenty change at the dock before departure based on the expected conditions.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

...Telling a guy who reacted badly in 30 knots T night in the med , his wife needs to go forward to pull down a big Genoa ( to be replaced by what ) now that’s madness.

I’m not saying all circumstances are madness I’m saying in relation to the OP the advice is madness. It’s also totally unnecessarily to boot

Who gave that advice? Not me. My advice would be: Do not set out on that offshore passage with a large genoa, particularly if you are not comfortable changing it, and when your furler is tricky, and when the area you are sailing in is subject to suddenly arising strong winds.

But if I had a genoa up and the wind increased, I'd drop the sail. Done it many many times, I have to, I have no furler.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by wingssail

Who gave that advice? Not me. My advice would be: Do not set out on that offshore passage with a large genoa, particularly if you are not comfortable changing it, and when your furler is tricky, and when the area you are sailing in is subject to suddenly arising strong winds.



But if I had a genoa up and the wind increased, I'd drop the sail. Done it many many times, I have to, I have no furler.

My advice is don’t set out until you’ve fixed your furler

The normal thing you do with a roller furling headsail is just that you reef or furl it

I’m even less aware of people with roller headsails having more then one ( sometimes people keep the old one ) I can’t remember the last time I saw a smaller headsail for a roller furling boat unless it was a cutter or something.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by wingssail

Who gave that advice? Not me. My advice would be: Do not set out on that offshore passage with a large genoa, particularly if you are not comfortable changing it, and when your furler is tricky, and when the area you are sailing in is subject to suddenly arising strong winds.



But if I had a genoa up and the wind increased, I'd drop the sail. Done it many many times, I have to, I have no furler.

Actually you said this

“
I would prefer to see folks get in the practice of raising and lowering their furling headsails at sea, and when short handed, use a smaller sail. It will be slower in light winds but safer when the blow hits.”

Which suggests an at sea headsail change given they have roller reefing ( note reefing ) why would they drop the headsail. It’s makes no sense.

If you have roller reefing, when the wind rises you reef , hopefully just before it’s needed.

I mean I had 30 knots on the way to this anchorage I’m typing this from , two reefs in the main and a genny reefed to about 40 %. Sure I loose wind angle but who cares.

[rslifkin]

There's a big difference between reefing the jib for a squall vs when you expect high winds for a day or 2. In the first case, just roll up some jib and go for it. But if it's going to be windy for a while, swap to a smaller jib. Not everyone with roller furling has multiple headsails, but plenty of people do. Maybe a 130 and a 110. Of course it depends on the boat too. If it only carries a 105 or 110 anyway then people are less likely to carry alternate headsails.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Actually you said this

“
I would prefer to see folks get in the practice of raising and lowering their furling headsails at sea, and when short handed, use a smaller sail. It will be slower in light winds but safer when the blow hits.”

Which suggests an at sea headsail change given they have roller reefing ( note reefing ) why would they drop the headsail. It’s makes no sense.

If you have roller reefing, when the wind rises you reef , hopefully just before it’s needed.

I mean I had 30 knots on the way to this anchorage I’m typing this from , two reefs in the main and a genny reefed to about 40 %. Sure I loose wind angle but who cares.

Gee, goboatingnow, don't be dense. The reason to drop the sail is to put up a different one. That people might want to do that should not be ruled out.

But my point is that people should carry smaller sails and they should use them. And frankly, the ability to change sails is valuable.

Yes, not everyone carries a smaller headsail aboard, but it is not that uncommon, and of course people rarely change headsails at sea (although some do, they've said so on this forum). I'd like to see more capable sailors setting out who can put the right sails on to suit the conditions and that does not mean sailing in 30kts with a 120% genoa rolled down to 40%. There is absolute beauty in sailing a long windy ocean passage with a small jib and a reefed main. That's just my view.