Where did I go wrong?

[wingssail]

As is being said, starting the engine before ensuring the lines were not in the water was a critical error, the one with consequences.

Otherwise you were simply trying to manage the situation as best you could. No issues with how you did that; each boat is different and how we deal with stuff is up to each of us.

However, my policy in difficult situations is to sail, not take down sails and turn on the motor. We would have gotten the genoa off and sailed with the main, maybe reefed if the wind persists. 30 knots, close hauled on main alone, jogging along on an upwind course: no problem for most boats.

[JPA Cate]

Snore was the first to write what I was thinking:

the engine should NEVER start until all lines are accounted for.

I've never heard of stopper knots in genoa sheets; we've only used them for halyards. When furling the genoa, we look for one or two complete wraps before we stop, and that's long before we'd get to the bitter end. We did have a genoa sheet get washed overboard, once; and Jim did as Don CL did, dove in the night time water and cleared it using a knife. Usually the line will wrap too tightly to be able to undo it by hand. It is a situation that one can cope with by oneself, if you have a decent dive light aboard. A diving headlamp would be perfect, and can also re used for other times you want a headlamp and hands free to work.

But, always, always, check to make sure there are no lines in the water, before starting the engine. Even at the dock. I don't know how the visibility on your boat is, but if it is so wide you have to move from the helm to see clearly from stern to bow on both sides, resign yourself to do it. It is only a couple of steps, and the safety is well worth it. And, as you learned, failure to do so can be a real problem. Sorry about that. But remember, it is a landing you walked away from, so don't beat yourself up over it.

Also, from what our experience has been, like wingless, we find sailing in nasty conditions is a better deal than motoring or motor sailing. For me, it is that having some heel on, makes the jerky up and down easier to tolerate. Also, we tend to sail a lot faster than we motor. BUT, if it is howling, you are better off to avoid the marina and wait for the wind to settle down: it had been shelter, but can be difficult to get into a slip safely in a strong wind. In our boat, the bow tends to blow down.

Often, in strongish winds, you'd be better off to use your genoa, having dumped the main. This is one thing I like about a boom bag: The sail comes down into the bag and the bunt doesn't get in the way of seeing forward. There's an immediate reduction in the forces on you when you sail under genoa alone. You won't go as fast, and that may give you more time to assess the situation calmly. It's a big responsibility, being skipper, and you might find yourself playing scenarios of "what might happen if?" just to plan in advance how to handle situations that might develop. One that I run is about night rescues of MOB.

Ann

[psk125]

Originally Posted by Jammer

I am surprised that the Genoa sheets would be long enough to foul the propeller while the Genoa is rolled up. Extra length on lines is nothing but trouble.

Genoa sheets need to be long enough to reach from the cockpit winch, (with a few wraps and a tail), forward to the mast, and then back to the clew of the sail when it is trimmed in. For a 150% Genoa this is often roughly 2X the boat's length, so that even with the jib furled there is likely plenty of line to reach and tangle in the prop.

[zlehmann]

As a greenhorn reading anything and everything I can to absorb sailing knowledge I really appreciate your write up!

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by JPA Cate

Snore was the first to write what I was thinking:

I've never heard of stopper knots in genoa sheets; we've only used them for halyards. When furling the genoa, we look for one or two complete wraps before we stop, and that's long before we'd get to the bitter end...
Ann

Ann, in this case the OP's crew was having problem furling the genoa so he released the sheets entirely. The sail flogged wildly and it pulled the bitter ends out of the sheet leads (and over the side).

[ChrisJHC]

Most of my sailing has been on boats with hanked-on headsails, so apologies if this is an ignorant observation.

No-one seems to be considering the option of dropping the headsail if you can’t furl it.
Any reason why?

[Rucksta]

Originally Posted by ChrisJHC

Most of my sailing has been on boats with hanked-on headsails, so apologies if this is an ignorant observation.

No-one seems to be considering the option of dropping the headsail if you can’t furl it.
Any reason why?

It's been in the track, under various tension for often quite a long time.

The luff tape will likely be stiff in the track and the sail will need persuasion to come down.

It may be the crew are not recently practiced with headsail changes on a Furler.

Working conditions on deck could be sub optimal. Weather, Ergonomics.

Sail may already be partially furled.


All of the above

[DanielI]

You can see here my latest misadventure and why I’m not qualified to comment: https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...un-268411.html

That said, here is my comment

I’m confused because you say you wanted to go on using the Genoa. I’m assuming you didn’t feel safe going up to untangle the lines. But why couldn’t you raise the main, reefed? That should be much less power.

That said, if you didn’t feel comfortable sailing even with a reefed main, and without an engine, you really had no choice but to call for help. And even if you had sailed back to port, if the wind hadn’t dropped to the point you felt comfortable docking under sail in the dark, you still would have needed help.

Glad you are safe.

[DanielI]

Originally Posted by JPA Cate

I've never heard of stopper knots in genoa sheets; we've only used them for halyards.

When the OP said “open the Genoa sheets,” I assume he meant release from the winches, but he thought he had a stopper knot in them. That’s how we were taught to rig it. However, one possibility is that the knot was not missing, but when the sheets started flogging, the knot came out. That’s happened to me with a single figure 8 knot, and I was advised that sometimes doubling the knot is helpful in high wind situations like that.

[crankysailor]

Lots of very good feedback. Thanks folks. There is one thing in particular which I will take to heart and try to remember in a future situation and that is .. keep calm and keep sailing; i.e. heeding the advice in the comments saying "just remain under sail and leave the motor alone". To be honest, I was just trained badly then

I was taught early on that when SHTF, the first thing you do is get rid of the main. If you don't know what is happening, get rid of the main. The main is trouble. If you are sad. Get rid of the main. Fast. It was kind of an instinct. Reading the comments and thinking about it I am baffled myself. This is stupid. I could have rolled in the genoa, pointed up and ...think. Something so simple, yet I just.. sprang to my feet, turned the engine on and ordered to drop the main immediately.

I think if I had done this, everything would have been fine. I would have had an exciting sail overnight in 30kts and that would have been it.

Now.. the error of not making sure what the situation with the lines was once I saw they were not in the cockpit was ofc, as someone said, the damning moment. This was just negligent and it had to happen and it had to cost me and now.. well.. now I learned THAT lesson. But the strategic failure I think that started the cascade reaction was the failure to just try to figure things out first under sail. My boat is a delight to sail in waves. It sails on rails.. I had been on 30kts all the time during the last few years in the Dodecanese.. why did I just have this knee jerk reaction? well as someone said.. it was not the 30kts.. it was the suddenness of it all.. a forecast of 10 knots where one is struggling to keep power in the sails one second and the next the autopilot alarm is screaming for help (autopilot appears now to be broken after the ordeal.. different thread :-/ ) .. the darkness.. the gale forecasted for the next day. The whole thing just freaked me out. Yes.. a bit of pressure quickly separates the novices from the experienced cruisers .. I know.

In a twisted way.. I am "glad" it happened. In the end it is only money what was lost. And if something like this hadn't happened now, after a few years sailing without any incidents and never gotten burned, I would go on believing I was a good sailor and maybe next time it would have not been 5 miles off a big industrial port but 500 miles from anywhere.. so yeah.. better to learn this lesson now than later. I probably needed this reality check reset :-)

Thanks again folks for listening!

[crankysailor]

You mentioned your crew was inexperienced, how experienced are you?

Well.. I thought I had some experience. Cruising since 2015 on and off.. playing with sails and the wind for 18 years.. in other words.. not very :-(

You eased off the main, headed up which on your boat is exactly what you should have done. At this point though, you reached for the key which suggests inexperience on your part in these conditions. You had the boat in a controllable condition

Yes.. this is exactly what annoys me the most. In hindsight I am just thinking.. how could I have (over) reacted like this. Everything was fine then. The whole thing just caught me off guard and I wasn't prepared.

As far as stopper knot. I don't use one on the sheets. If I need to let the sail go I'm not having a good day and I want it gone, now, no knives involved, just quickly, easily.

You know this is a very good point actually.. hmm..

[rslifkin]

In my mind, starting the engine was a perfectly reasonable move. Then it's ready to go if you end up needing it. Ideally, everything gets sorted out without needing to put it in gear. But if not, you can confirm no lines in the water, pop it in gear and maintain steerage while you sort out the rest of the mess and get the boat sailing again.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by ChrisJHC

Most of my sailing has been on boats with hanked-on headsails, so apologies if this is an ignorant observation.

No-one seems to be considering the option of dropping the headsail if you can’t furl it.
Any reason why?

With the near universal adoption of furling headsails we have, in all practicality, lost the option of "dropping the headsail". As Ruksta says below, it isn't possible any more. People only put their headsails up and down at the dock, in a usually very tedious process involving a few helpers.

Originally Posted by Rucksta

It's been in the track, under various tension for often quite a long time.

The luff tape will likely be stiff in the track and the sail will need persuasion to come down.

It may be the crew are not recently practiced with headsail changes on a Furler.

Working conditions on deck could be sub optimal. Weather, Ergonomics.

Sail may already be partially furled.

All of the above

And because most sailboats have large genoas on the furler, they are ill prepared to either deal with strong winds or to go forward when the blow hits, too scary.

I would prefer to see folks get in the practice of raising and lowering their furling headsails at sea, and when short handed, use a smaller sail. It will be slower in light winds but safer when the blow hits.

[JPA Cate]

Originally Posted by DanielI

When the OP said “open the Genoa sheets,” I assume he meant release from the winches, but he thought he had a stopper knot in them. That’s how we were taught to rig it. However, one possibility is that the knot was not missing, but when the sheets started flogging, the knot came out. That’s happened to me with a single figure 8 knot, and I was advised that sometimes doubling the knot is helpful in high wind situations like that.

Hi, Daniel,

I can see how teaching people to stopper- knot their genoa sheets could protect against the line in the water problem. Was that how the practice was described?

We will continue to leave ours long and un-knotted, because the line check before starting the engine is quite ingrained now; and because we like to be able to take multiple rolls of line around the furled sail, to help it stay furled with strong wind. Stopper knots for halyards keep them from going to the masthead when you don't want them to.

Yes, doubling the figure 8 knot, as the British do, makes them less likely to flog undone.

Ann

[flightlead404]

I’m curious about what you did with the boat, and how it fared, between your desicion to make the pan pan pan call and hooking up the tow.